hypnogogia
Member
According to seriously fish, they need a minium 60*30 tank. Seems a lot of fish for what amounts to little more than a bucket of water.
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15l bowl scape
- Thread starter Commander Shepard
- Start date
Commander Shepard
Member
These numbers seem arbitrary at best. If you look at their wild habitat and range you'd need millions of liters for almost every species except for the mud puddle dwellers. Doesn't seem to be the case because aquarium fish tend to live longer, less stressful lives.
The conditions in which they are bred, grown and kept commercially on the other hand are more cramped than this bowl even.
If you look at swimming space for exercise - well he doesn't even use what he currently has; tends stay in a small spot and explore rather than swim long stretches like my rainbows do.
In general, this bowl has far more features for the fish to experience than your usual 50l home aquarium would with a plastic palm tree and some gravel. So here the metric shouldn't even be the size of the tank. It also looks far less busy and dense in general than a lot of big cichlid or rainbow tanks.
The water quality has to be kept up of course, but for now I'm dosing nitrates, so I'd rather have a higher bioload. I expect the snails and shrimp will help with that as they are already breeding.
I'm not saying this couldn't be too much as the tanks and animals mature, but if I notice any unusual behaviour I have space to move them to the main community tank. That one was actually too stressful for the chillis, with the higher flow and more active fish, but the gourami and axelrodi would do fine there.
hypnogogia
Member
Difference being that an aquarium (or gold fish bowl) is a closed system, where as the wild isn’t. You’ve also got very small surface area to volume because of the bowl shape. But, chacun à son goût. Personally, I think it’s cruel.
Commander Shepard
Member
Decided to redo one of the moss islands as it was falling apart slowly. Got a stick from the park, but this time around I sealed the bottom part with super glue and used epoxy to secure it. Also replaced the microfibre lens cloth with some proper wicking rope. Added a few springtails as well.
Glued an air plant from garden centre and lichen from the forest, both as an experiment to see if they'll survive if I mist them with rodi water every couple of days. The last addition above water is a a small usb grow light to help with the emersed plants as the room is quite dark otherwise.
Underwater things are going quite well. There's even some pearling, either from the hair grass or the monte carlo which I've never had before in my tanks. There are some new stems of rotalas in the back.
Had to give up on adding caradina shrimp, the seriyu stone raises the tds to ~180 after a couple of days, even if I use pure RO, so it's not worth fighting it. Could maybe work for sulawesi, but not with these fish, so it's staying with various neocaradinas.
Last addition is a small 12v pump with the voltage turned down to reduce the flow. Its main purpose is to mix the water as the temperature was swinging wildly without it.
Glued an air plant from garden centre and lichen from the forest, both as an experiment to see if they'll survive if I mist them with rodi water every couple of days. The last addition above water is a a small usb grow light to help with the emersed plants as the room is quite dark otherwise.
Underwater things are going quite well. There's even some pearling, either from the hair grass or the monte carlo which I've never had before in my tanks. There are some new stems of rotalas in the back.
Had to give up on adding caradina shrimp, the seriyu stone raises the tds to ~180 after a couple of days, even if I use pure RO, so it's not worth fighting it. Could maybe work for sulawesi, but not with these fish, so it's staying with various neocaradinas.
Last addition is a small 12v pump with the voltage turned down to reduce the flow. Its main purpose is to mix the water as the temperature was swinging wildly without it.
I really like this tank, and I think the fish in here are fine for that tank size, as long as you know what you are doing(they look healthy so I'm assuming you do ).
Gotta get my shields up for this one, I know a lot of people wont like that. However, they would be happier in a bigger tank, and long term I would just suggest the chillies alone, or even better just the shrimp.
Gotta get my shields up for this one, I know a lot of people wont like that. However, they would be happier in a bigger tank, and long term I would just suggest the chillies alone, or even better just the shrimp.
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Commander Shepard
Member
These tank size recommendations don't seem very scientific at all. There's the bioload aspect but that depends more on the plants than the water volume. I would never keep a tank where the nitrogen builds up because of fish waste, it's a huge pain with water changes.
There's also water stability, but I keep a close eye on that. The seiryu stone doesn't help, but it's been fine.
As for the fish getting bored or miss their freedom. Not convinced they are even capable of such a thing. Also seems to depend more on what you have in the tank than water volume.
Still keeping an eye on any strange behaviour of course, swimming in circles or lethargy, but nothing like that so far. Plenty of space in my 90l if I need to move some fish.
There's also water stability, but I keep a close eye on that. The seiryu stone doesn't help, but it's been fine.
As for the fish getting bored or miss their freedom. Not convinced they are even capable of such a thing. Also seems to depend more on what you have in the tank than water volume.
Still keeping an eye on any strange behaviour of course, swimming in circles or lethargy, but nothing like that so far. Plenty of space in my 90l if I need to move some fish.
Not sure I’m comfortable with this. I guess we can reason all we want about what is ethically, scientifically, morally and philosophically appropriate.
And I’m not sure it meets with UKAPS rules and regulations regarding animal welfare. I guess that’s a judgement call for a forum that has responsibility for promoting animal welfare.
However, the short of it is, keeping sentiment animals in what could be considered as less than optimal conditions is questionable.
If we find ourselves having to justify a position that is evidently perceived as boarderline then maybe we shouldn’t be doing it in the first place.
And I’m not sure it meets with UKAPS rules and regulations regarding animal welfare. I guess that’s a judgement call for a forum that has responsibility for promoting animal welfare.
However, the short of it is, keeping sentiment animals in what could be considered as less than optimal conditions is questionable.
If we find ourselves having to justify a position that is evidently perceived as boarderline then maybe we shouldn’t be doing it in the first place.
Commander Shepard
Member
You're quick to call animal abuse here, but still won't explain where your numbers came from for what is an acceptable amount of water and why. We wouldn't be able to match their natural habitat or range even with a 1000l giant scape.
This is the "happiest" gourami I've seen. - though attributing happiness or this romantic notion of sentience to a 2cm fish with a handful of neurons is still rather fantastical. He's exploring the bowl, picking at the plants and hardscape, he built a giant bubble nest at the back, eating well, doesn't try to jump or hit the glass. The gouramis in my community tank haven't made nests and those are in pairs.
If anything, a safe, calm environment will be less stress for the fish than something much bigger and busier.
I wouldn't say so; we know that fish can feel pain (which for some reason came as a surprise to many), the cleaner wrasse passed the mirror test (which arguably makes it more self aware than most mammals), and mormyrids have probably the most advanced brain of any vertebrate (using over twice as much energy as a humans brain), fish are not nearly as dumb as people made them out to be 50 years ago. If there's a chance, however small, that fish have a well developed sense of their surroundings (or lack thereof), I think we should treat them as if they have just to be on the safe side.
seedoubleyou
Member
It all just boils down to experience. I can only imagine that running a forum such as this one for many years, you will have seen tanks come in all shapes and sizes, some with success and some with failure.
It's good you have a larger tank. If it was me, to avoid risk I'd move the gourami and the neons. As much as the water volume – and given the hardscape it's considerably less – it's the shape of the tank and liable distortion to sense of physical space involved. You are clearly good at scapes and keeping fish so have a fallback. There are lots of colourful or rare kinds of shrimp that would be good to enliven this smaller tank.
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I must admit to having been very sceptical about animal sentience in general and especially that regarding fish. However, over the past few years I’ve read some peer reviewed scientific research, and witnessed both animal and specially fish behaviour which has unequivocally changed my mind.
However that belief is really irrelevant since all animals should be treated with dignity, and have the right to live a life free from suffering, regardless of whether scientific evidence supports animal sentience or not. Which btw it increasingly does.
It’s been debated before
Further, Seriously Fish has really set the standard for aquarium size for individual fish species. I think they’ve been mutually agreed between hobbyists, and also the founder of the site is an experienced ichthyologist and fish conservationist. For honey gourami the minimum is an aquarium with base dimensions of 60x30cm. For neons it is the same. And for micro rasbora it’s 45x30cm, or larger.
I think we’d all be appreciative if the fish were rehomed in a larger aquarium, and this journal, which has otherwise been excellent, continue, perhaps with shrimp instead.
However that belief is really irrelevant since all animals should be treated with dignity, and have the right to live a life free from suffering, regardless of whether scientific evidence supports animal sentience or not. Which btw it increasingly does.
It’s been debated before
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Further, Seriously Fish has really set the standard for aquarium size for individual fish species. I think they’ve been mutually agreed between hobbyists, and also the founder of the site is an experienced ichthyologist and fish conservationist. For honey gourami the minimum is an aquarium with base dimensions of 60x30cm. For neons it is the same. And for micro rasbora it’s 45x30cm, or larger.
I think we’d all be appreciative if the fish were rehomed in a larger aquarium, and this journal, which has otherwise been excellent, continue, perhaps with shrimp instead.
