60-P low tech

Discussion in 'Journals' started by JEK, 23 Apr 2019.

  1. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    Well, I'm hooked again. Just picked up an ADA 60-P. I have a pretty good idea about the hardscape already:
    [​IMG]

    The lighting is a Twinstar 600ES. filtration will be an Eheim Classic 250 and an Azoo skimmer. The Eheim is maybe a bit weak for flow, but I will supplement with a powerhead if necessary.
    I haven't decided on plants yet, but for sure a variety of epiphytes on the wood and maybe also some moss. Probably also some crypts for the midground. I'm not sure about the foreground and background - maybe Eleocharis mini and Eleocharis vivipara in the background?

    Originally I intended this to be a low-tech setup with the Twinstar dimmed to 50 or 25 % but I must admit that I'm tempted to get a CO2 system for it. I am, however a bit reluctant after stumbling upon some forum threads and a practical fishkeeping article about the potential negative (and invisible) long-term effects CO2-injection can have on fish and invertebrates. PFK article https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/blog/articles/does-co2-injection-cause-disease
    Barrreport thread: https://barrreport.com/threads/14-ppm-co2-proven-detrimental-for-freshwater-tropical-fish.14126/
    Do you think observing normal behaviour and no deaths is good enough to assure that the CO2 levels used aren't harmful? I'm not sure I think that's enough to claim that CO2 is harmless, so I'm struggling a bit with justifying CO2 injection at the moment. If someone can provide good arguments for justifying the use of CO2 (or the opposite) or just have some relevant knowledge on fish physiology and/or CO2 levels in nature you are very welcome to share it here.
     
    dw1305 likes this.
  2. Matt @ ScapeEasy

    Matt @ ScapeEasy Member

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    Really interesting reading thanks for posting these. I don’t feel I have enough experience to really comment on the effects on the fish, so I will simply say that it makes a lot of sense what has been said here...

    It looks like 12ppm is the magic number to stay below from a fish point of view. As an exclusively non CO2 user myself, this leads me to ask; is this enough for medium plants? I suspect it would be? Can you effectively monitor these kinds of levels if drop checkers etc are set up for more like 30ppm?

    That said, apart from your carpet you definitely won’t require high tech conditions. Perhaps it might be best to do a dry start to get the carpet going or to inject CO2 just at the start... or choose another carpeting plant of course. Lilaeopsis is pretty bullet proof in my experience even in a non CO2 system.

    I wonder if there has been similar research done into the use of liquid carbon... I strongly suspect that there may be very similar consequences...
     
    dw1305 likes this.
  3. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    I agree. It's a complicated topic and tolerance probably varies a lot from species to species.
    I haven't tried it, but I would guess that it is perfectly fine for most plants - they'll just grow a bit slower. I know that you can purchase drop checker fluid for 20 ppm, but haven't seen anything lower than that.

    I've though about Lileaopsis and I haven't grown it before so it would be fun to try out!

    Good question! I also suspect that it isn't to healthy for fish (for other reasons than CO2), but I don't know much about it.


    Tried changing the hardscape around a bit, critique is welcome.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Jayefc1

    Jayefc1 Member

    Messages:
    879
    Location:
    Swadlincote
    I dont really know much about the effects co2 has on fish but I'm pretty sure most of us have open top tanks and more fish possibly die due to that than co2
     
    obsessed likes this.
  5. CooKieS

    CooKieS Member

    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    France
    My fishes are healthier than Ever in aquascaped high tech setup, glutamaldehide isn't good for animals buy only at very high dosage.

    Cheers
     
  6. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    8,267
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    I'm not a CO2 user, partially because of the ethical issues.

    I think
    is right, and if I was adding CO2 I would keep away from fish from rivers or cooler water. There is mention of the <"Bohr and Root"> effects in <"Surface agitation...."> (and <"linked threads">).
    I think you can make your own, and that a 2dKH solution would give you the similar colour responses to a 4dKH solution, but with 1/2 the amount of CO2 (green-yellow at 15ppm CO2).

    You could dilute bought 4dKH solution with RO water, but you would probably need to add a bit more <"bromothymol blue"> pH indicator.

    cheers Darrel
     
    GreenNeedle likes this.
  7. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    Nice to hear I'm not the only one with these considerations. I think I will start out without CO2 and see how it goes.

    Does anyone have experience with apistos on powder soil substrate? Will they sift it or do they only do that with sand?
     
  8. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    [​IMG]
    How do you like this compared to the other layout? More classic and "safe" but maybe also a bit boring?
     
    Lauris likes this.
  9. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    8,267
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    I've kept A. agassizii in a tank with cat litter as a substrate and they still sifted the substrate.

    cheers Darrel
     
  10. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    Thanks for replying, Darrel. The soil will get covered with the lileaopsis carpet with time though, so maybe best to have an unplanted area with sand in the foreground?
     
  11. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    8,267
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    You could do, you may find that if it is both open and brightly lit they tend to avoid it. I have a lot of moss and structural leaf litter in my tanks and looking through that tends to keep them occupied.

    cheers Darrel
     
  12. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    Hadn't thought of that. Thanks.
     
  13. Matt @ ScapeEasy

    Matt @ ScapeEasy Member

    Messages:
    687
    Location:
    Lancaster
    I very much prefer this layout. Classics are classic for a reason I guess! Looks really great seriously... maybe that vertical piece of wood is a little too vertical? Struggling to suggest much more!
     
  14. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    Thanks very much! I totally agree that the vertical piece is a bit too vertical. When all of the substrate is added it will be easier to make adjustments..
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2019
  15. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    I think this will be the hardscape:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 25 Apr 2019
    Ady34, Tim Harrison, Jayefc1 and 2 others like this.
  16. Michal550

    Michal550 Member

    Messages:
    91
    looks very good. following.
     
    JEK likes this.
  17. CooKieS

    CooKieS Member

    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    France
    Classic nature aquarium style, nice flow of the roots. Nicely done!
     
    JEK likes this.
  18. JEK

    JEK Member

    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Denmark
    Thank you! I'm really happy with it. Looking forward to plant it.

    Do you think the long branch sticks out of the water too much? I could try and break some of it off..
     
  19. CooKieS

    CooKieS Member

    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    France
    Well, if it bothers you during maintenance, you could always cut it later with dremel tools.

    Or better doing it now with a Hand saw :)
     
    JEK likes this.
  20. Matt @ ScapeEasy

    Matt @ ScapeEasy Member

    Messages:
    687
    Location:
    Lancaster
    For what it's worth I think they look just fine, I deffo wouldn't break some off, I don't think it would look right at all...
     
    PARAGUAY and JEK like this.

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