Am I adding enough??

[Mattant1984]

So my tank has grown a lot in the last 5 or 6 months and I am wondering if with my current plant stocks and growth if I am still adding enough ferts??

-Tanks is 700 litres
-Low tech with basic led lighting for 8.5 hours a day, no C02
-fine gravel substrate with root tabs
-2 external filters
-fairly high fish load
-50% water changes weekly

All plants are fairly easy (see pic) and I am currently adding 30ml of TNC complete 3x per week. (90ml weekly)

Most plants seem to be doing OK however I dont get extreme growth (expected) and some are showing signs that they could do better.

I keep a fair few crypts and they have always done quite well but some now seem to be melting back a little, getting holes or yellowing even though they have been in there for around 5 months.

Could thus bee to do with needing more ferts or root tabs??

I've added some pics below including one of the whole tank

 

[The grumpy one]

I'm no expert but I would say they look like they need more ferts.
My tank (no CO₂, no fish) is 30l and I add 4ml of TNC complete every day. That would be 1ml for every 7.5l per day. Or 28ml per week.
Yours would be an astonishing 653ml per week??????? Can't be right?
But my plants are doing very well.

I am sure my maths is wrong. Someone will correct me later.

 

[Mattant1984]

I'm no expert but I would say they look like they need more ferts.
My tank (no CO₂, no fish) is 30l and I add 4ml of TNC complete every day. That would be 1ml for every 7.5l per day. Or 28ml per week.
Yours would be an astonishing 653ml per week??????? Can't be right?
But my plants are doing very well.
View attachment 197052

I am sure my maths is wrong. Someone will correct me later.

Wow there's no way I'm adding that much a week I'll be skint lol 🤣🤣

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Yours would be an astonishing 653ml per week??????? Can't be right?
But my plants are doing very well.

Wow there's no way I'm adding that much a week I'll be skint lol

It is back to the <"World's most expensive water"> contest. Have a look at the links in this one <"Phosphate is the king of the planted tank">.

Most plants seem to be doing OK however I dont get extreme growth (expected) and some are showing signs that they could do better.

Have a look at <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mattant1984]

Hi all,


It is back to the <"World's most expensive water"> contest. Have a look at the links in this one <"Phosphate is the king of the planted tank">.

Have a look at <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel, I will take a look.
So from my pics would you say my crypts are lacking anything??

Thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So from my pics would you say my crypts are lacking anything??

Not particularly, they just look a little lacklustre. It is really difficult to diagnose nutrient deficiencies. Once you've taken light (PAR) out of the equation <"Liebig's limiting nutrient"> can be carbon (CO2) or any of the mineral nutrients.

I will take a look.

The main advantage for a big tank is just cost. Dry salts are a fraction of the price of "liquid fertilisers", and if they don't have the <"magic word "aquatic">? Cheaper again.

This is the composition of Solufeed 2 : 1: 4

cheers Darrel

 

[Mattant1984]

Hi all,

Not particularly, they just look a little lacklustre. It is really difficult to diagnose nutrient deficiencies. Once you've taken light (PAR) out of the equation <"Liebig's limiting nutrient"> can be carbon (CO2) or any of the mineral nutrients.

The main advantage for a big tank is just cost. Dry salts are a fraction of the price of "liquid fertilisers", and if they don't have the <"magic word "aquatic">, cheaper again.

This is the composition of Solufeed 2 : 1: 4

cheers Darrel

Thanks again, so I take it with solufeed you just mix it with water and dose exactly the same way as TNC??
How would you know how much to add to the tank??

SSorry for all the questions I'm very new to ferts

 

[hypnogogia]

Wow there's no way I'm adding that much a week I'll be skint lol 🤣🤣

Make your own with dry salts.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Sorry for all the questions I'm very new to ferts

No, you are good. It is an area where people <"can save a lot of money">. There isn't any argument about aesthetics with fertilisers, it really <"is just numbers">.

Thanks again, so I take it with solufeed you just mix it with water and dose exactly the same way as TNC??

Exactly that, but because your is such a big tank you could actually dry dose it as a powder. The general workings are here <"How do I calculate fertiliser dosage based on weight percentage?">.

How would you know how much to add to the tank??

Just choose a target value for one of your nutrients. Because it is an agricultural fertiliser it quotes the phosphorus (P) and potassium (K) content <"via their oxides">, so I'll use the nitrogen content and assume that it is all nitrate NO3-. I'm going to aim for 10 ppm NO3 (2.26 ppm N* =10 / 4.43).
*edit changed from 4.43, (less haste more speed)

• The tank is a nominal 180 litres and
• I want 10 ppm NO3
• Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 is 15% nitrogen (N).
• There are 1000 mg in a gram, so 1 gram of Solufeed contains 0.15g or 150 mg N, "mg / L" and "ppm" are equivalents.
• 150 / 180 = 0.83 ppm N in 180 litres. To convert from N to NO3 we multiply by 4.43.
• 0.83 x 4.43 = 3.69, so 1 gram of Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 supplies 3.69 ppm NO3
• 3.69 * 2.71 = 10 ppm
• You need to add 2.7g of Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 to 180 litres to give 10 ppm NO3.

@Mattant1984 's tank is 700 litres, so all we need to do is divide 700 / 180 = 3.89 and 2.7(g) x 3.89 = 10.5. When you add 10.5g of Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 to your 700 litre tank you have added 10 ppm NO3.

We can use that figure to work out the other nutrients we've added. I'll just <"do phosphorus (P) and potassium (K)">, but all the other nutrients can be worked out in the same way.

....... We are supplying 10 ppm NO3, which is 2.25 ppm N and N is 15% of our fertiliser mix.

• For phosphorus we need to divide 3 (% P in our mix) by 15 (% N) = 0.2 and then multiply 0.2 by 2.25 = 0.45 ppm P
• For potassium we need to divide 26.5 / 15 = 1.77 and then multiply 1.77 by 2.25 = 4 ppm K

I usually suggest making up a "stock solution" and <"then using serial dilution">, because I don't like working with small volumes or weights, but your tank is so massive that kitchen scales would be accurate enough to weigh out your dose.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mattant1984]

Hi all,

No, you are good. It is an area where people <"can save a lot of money">. There isn't any argument about aesthetics with fertilisers, it really <"is just numbers">.

Exactly that, but because your is such a big tank you could actually dry dose it as a powder. The general workings are here <"How do I calculate fertiliser dosage based on weight percentage?">.

Just choose a target value for one of your nutrients. Because it is an agricultural fertiliser it quotes the phosphorus (P) and potassium (K) content <"via their oxides">, so I'll use the nitrogen content and assume that it is all nitrate NO3-. I'm going to aim for 10 ppm NO3 (4.43 ppm N).

@Mattant1984 's tank is 700 litres, so all we need to do is divide 700 / 180 = 3.89 and 2.7(g) x 3.89 = 10.5. When you add 10.5g of Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 to your 700 litre tank you have added 10 ppm NO3.

We can use that figure to work out the other nutrients we've added. I'll just <"do phosphorus (P) and potassium (K)">, but all the other nutrients can be worked out in the same way.

I usually suggest making up a "stock solution" and <"then using serial dilution">, because I don't like working with small volumes or weights, but your tank is so massive that kitchen scales would be accurate enough to weigh out your dose.

cheers Darrel

Darrel your a star thanks for that, it will give me something to try and digest and get my teeth into.

One other question I can't get my head around is how do I know how much I need to add weekly??
I see a lot of posts about EI dosing and I gather that is dosing enough ferts so your plants always have enough??

Does this EI dosing only apply to high tech tanks with C02 and what would my tank be determined as?? (Eg low tech etc)

 

[plantnoobdude]

10 ppm NO3 (4.43 ppm N).

Error here?
10 NO3 would be ~2 N.

 

[dw1305]

Error here?
10 NO3 would be ~2 N.

Thank you, it should be, because 10 / 4.43 is definitely two and a bit. I'll go back and change it, I assume I meant to write "10 / 4.43" rather than just 4.43.

The "4.43" number is the difference between % nitrogen (N) content and the % nitrate (NO3-) content. Nitrate is all 100% of NO3 and N only 22.6% (because of the three oxygen atoms in NO3). The 0.226 and 4.43 values are calculated from the <"RMM"> of NO3 is 14 + (3*<"16">) = 62 and 62 / 14 (<"RAM of N">) = 4.43 and 14 / 62 = 0.226.

Cheers Darrel

 

[KirstyF]

I don’t think you have anything too demanding in there so, whilst Solufeed ratios are somewhat different to traditional EI, you could just start out at half or a 1/3 of EI No3 levels as your proxy and go from there (so 10-15ppm No3)

If you want to get more complex, you can go for individual salts and use the IFC calculator but Darrels not steering you far wrong here! (IMO) 😊

Once you’ve got ur eye in, you may even want to use the duckweed index, aka, ‘dose when your plants tell you they need it’

Either way, with a tank that size, you definitely want to move over to dry salts. I’m running 700ltrs myself and dry is soooo the way forward. 😊

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @Mattant1984 In addition to what's already been suggested, in a massive tank like that you really have to pay attention to flow and nutrient distribution. Also, it's possible you are running your tank at a slightly too high light intensity (not hours) for the amounts of nutrients you are providing vs. not being injected. And yes, as @KirstyF suggest, with a tank this big you want to roll your own fertilizer with cheap dry salts. You just need a good amount of NPK and a decent macro blend. Fertilizers can be done really cheaply. Actually, 90 ml per week of TNC complete a week for a 700 L tank is not devastatingly low (your getting 2 ppm of N per week actually) but I would double it for the time-being as it might not be enough with your increasing plant mass.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Mattant1984]

I don’t think you have anything too demanding in there so, whilst Solufeed ratios are somewhat different to traditional EI, you could just start out at half or a 1/3 of EI No3 levels as your proxy and go from there (so 10-15ppm No3)

If you want to get more complex, you can go for individual salts and use the IFC calculator but Darrels not steering you far wrong here! (IMO) 😊

Once you’ve got ur eye in, you may even want to use the duckweed index, aka, ‘dose when your plants tell you they need it’

Either way, with a tank that size, you definitely want to move over to dry salts. I’m running 700ltrs myself and dry is soooo the way forward. 😊

Hi @KirstyF and @MichaelJ

Thanks both for your input I appreciate it, it's all very confusing but I'm sure I will get my head round it.

I do like the thought of going down the dry salt route but also the solufeed does sound good. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind??

-do you make up a full all in one with the salts or do you dose NPK and then macros separate??
-Where is the best place to buy these dry salts and do they do something like a starter pack??
-I take it the calculator tells you how much to use for your water volume but how do you know how much of each for what plants you keep and weather you have high tech, low tech etc? Would my tank be classed as low tech??

I actually have turned down my lighting in the last week or so as I think it was a little bright, hopefully it will balance it a little better.

Many thanks 😊

 

[KirstyF]

No problem. 😊

The reality is that there are almost as many ways to run a tank as there are tanks out there, but as that is a whole minefield for someone starting out, these are some basics that you can likely start out with, without running into too many issues:

NPK is your Macro - many folks split the weekly dose into 3 and dose 3 times pw.
1st dose after weekly water change - (day 1) and then on day 3 and 5 (I choose to front load and simply dose the full weekly dose straight after water change)
Mg - you can dose ‘dry’ once per week after WC.
The remainder of the nutrients are your Micro, and again, this is often split out and dosed on day 2, 4 and 6, so opposite days to the Macro to prevent any unwanted interactions. (I use this method for micro’s)

The calculator will tell you all of the measurements you need to meet ur target level.

There’s a bit of a debate on…..most things….on this forum 😂 but I don’t think I’d get too much flack if I say that the simple judgement for low tech vs high tech is whether or not you run injected Co2.

So that puts you in the low tech camp and you can adjust your ferts accordingly. If you wish to use EI as your base then just 1/3 to 1/2 EI level should be fine for your Macro.

For your micro, the IFC Calculator will give you some common micro recipe’s that you can clone and that might be a good place for you to start.

In the main, I use Aqua plants care for my ferts but not sure that they do a starter pack, so it can be a bit of an investment to get going, but the ferts will then last for a very long time.

Things are a bit more leisurely with a low tech, so don’t expect explosive growth… it’s a slower and steadier pace….so a little more patience is required.

If you stick to plants in the ‘easy’ category, you won’t go far wrong and there are lots of beauties to choose from.

You may find that the thing most likely to trip you up (bring on the algae) is running too much light, so in this instance, less is more. 😊

And your ‘big tank’ biggest challenge may be flow and distribution. It’s important to ensure that your nutrients, oxygen, Co2 (from surface level air) are all getting round the system.

If you decide to go for individual ferts and need any help with the IFC or deciding which dry ferts to purchase, come back to us.

Alternatively with the Solufeed solution mentioned by Darrel, you would just dose based on how much No3 you are wanting. I’m not personally familiar with the product but I believe it is an all in one that contains macro and micro 🤔 @dw1305 perhaps you can confirm? 😊

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Where is the best place to buy these dry salts and do they do something like a starter pack??

I bought the last lot from the <"Solufeed shop front">, it was £13.99 + p & p for kilo.

do you make up a full all in one with the salts

I'd probably split it in to two doses, call it 6g a dose and <"dose it as a dry salt">. One advantage of this is that 6 g is that it is pretty much <"exactly a tea spoonful">.

Dosing at 12g a week your kilo would last you the best part of 18 months at ~£0.20 a week. It is honestly a no brainer.

Would my tank be classed as low tech??

Once you’ve got ur eye in, you may even want to use the duckweed index, aka, ‘dose when your plants tell you they need it’

Yes, "low tech".

If you want to use the <"Duckweed Index">? you just watch the leaf growth and colour of a floating plant (originally "Duckweed", Lemna minor), now ideally Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), and add the complete fertiliser mix at a rate that keeps your plants in the <"happy plant zone"> (below).

Have a look at <"Fluval Stratum & Caribsea Eco-Complete?"> for some very happy Frogbit plants, and <"Frogbit taken a turn"> to see how you can use your Frogbit to <" diagnose nutrient deficiencies">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mattant1984]

Hi all,

I bought the last lot from the <"Solufeed shop front">, it was £13.99 + p & p for kilo.

View attachment 197115

I'd probably split it in to two doses, call it 6g a dose and <"dose it as a dry salt">. One advantage of this is that 6 g is that it is pretty much <"exactly a tea spoonful">.

Dosing at 12g a week your kilo would last you the best part of 18 months at ~£0.20 a week. It is honestly a no brainer.


Yes, "low tech".

If you want to use the <"Duckweed Index">? you just watch the leaf growth and colour of a floating plant (originally "Duckweed", Lemna minor), now ideally Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), and add the complete fertiliser mix at a rate that keeps your plants in the <"happy plant zone"> (below).

Have a look at <"Fluval Stratum & Caribsea Eco-Complete?"> for some very happy Frogbit plants, and <"Frogbit taken a turn"> to see how you can use your Frogbit to <" diagnose nutrient deficiencies">.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel,

That's a serious price saving for sure!!
I'm currently spending about £15 for 2 months on TNC!!

So are you saying my tank would just need the 12g per week of Solufeed and that would cover all nutrients needed ??

Seems too good to be true lol

Many thanks

Matt

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So are you saying my tank would just need the 12g per week of Solufeed and that would cover all nutrients needed ??

Yes. If it isn't enough? Add in a third teaspoonful.

Seems too good to be true lol

That is partially why @Zeus. and @Hanuman created the <"IFC spreadsheet">, it allows you to compare the cost of fertilisers.

As soon as you know that every potassium ion (K+) is the same <"as every other potassium ion">, and <"doesn't know where it came from"> it raises some very interesting questions about the cost of fertilisers.

With the <"traditional apologies"> to @Miss-Pepper (because it is a bit of a rant) have a look at <"Bedside Aquarium">, it summarises my thoughts on many <"aquarium products"> and <"their purveyors">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mattant1984]

Hi all,

Yes.

That is partially why @Zeus. and @Hanuman created the <"IFC spreadsheet">, it allows you to compare the cost of fertilisers.

As soon as you know that every potassium ion (K+) is the same <"as every other potassium ion">, and <"doesn't know where it came from"> it raises some very interesting questions about the cost of fertilisers.

With the <"traditional apologies"> to @Miss-Pepper (because it is a bit of a rant) have a look at <"Bedside Aquarium">, it summarises my thoughts on many <"aquarium products"> and <"their purveyors">.

cheers Darrel

That's incredible Darrel thank you so much for all your help.
I will definitely be ordering some solufeed after I've used my bottle of TNC.