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am I loosing the battle against brown algae?

Yes I'm back with some more Algae (?) problem....now it's a black one, it's not hairy like BBA or any of the other red algae and is very very very difficult to remove with toothbrush
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the algae seems to only appear on the rocks
Do I still have to much light?.....I covered the lights today with some strips of a white plastic for about 40% because I can't take out one (of the 2) tubes...hoping this will help...tomorrow I will scrub and do a WC

Other comments on what could be the cause and/or the remedy for this are more than welcome.
 

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Hi Martin,
Looks like it's in the BBA family so need to investigate CO2. I guess you don't have access to gluteraldehyde products out there so it's more elbow grease and crank the CO2. Not sure if you looked that the pH profile. Would be worth investigating further.

Cheers,
 
although my KH is 3 or less (which makes measuring PH less accurate) I checked the PH before and it dropped about 0.8 when (from 7.4 to 6.6)...but I need to check again indeed, because I changed the way of putting CO2 into the water (direct into the filter inlet hose)....
I will try to find some glutaraldehyde ...anything that makes scrubbing easier is most welcome
 
If your kH is only 3 then you might need a 3 unit pH drop (or thereabouts) to get the same amount of CO2 in the water as the average person having higher KH.

Cheers,
 
Martin, you cannot add CO2 to water by adding CaCO3. When you add lime to water you get lime dissolved in water, that's all. There is only one way to add CO2 to water and that is to add more CO2. Why do people have difficulty with this concept?

When we are trying to determine how much CO2 is dissolved in water, well, CO2 is the horse and pH is the cart. So adding CaCO3 to the water only changes the weight of the cart because that will only change how much the pH changes for the SAME AMOUNT OF CO2.

Cheers,
 
If your kH is only 3 then you might need a 3 unit pH drop (or thereabouts) to get the same amount of CO2 in the water as the average person having higher KH.

Cheers,
Hi Clive,

very interesting what you are saying there. I know that if KH is low than you need a bigger drop of the ph. But I didn't had a clue of how much.
How did you ESTIMATE that 3 point drop for a KH 3 ? that would be interesting to know lol.
So with my soft water like martin I should drop the ph that low ? It would mean that I will need to put my ph around 2,2 ?

martin sorry to hijack your thread but I have also CO2 problem with my soft water.
Just to let you know about the PAR chart, I really invite you to go and read the link that is in the thread. because you have a lot of info in that thread and it will be helpful for you to better understand how they have made that chart.

cheers
 
If your kH is only 3 then you might need a 3 unit pH drop (or thereabouts) to get the same amount of CO2 in the water as the average person having higher KH.

Cheers,
Martin, you cannot add CO2 to water by adding CaCO3. When you add lime to water you get lime dissolved in water, that's all. There is only one way to add CO2 to water and that is to add more CO2. Why do people have difficulty with this concept?

When we are trying to determine how much CO2 is dissolved in water, well, CO2 is the horse and pH is the cart. So adding CaCO3 to the water only changes the weight of the cart because that will only change how much the pH changes for the SAME AMOUNT OF CO2.

Cheers,

Uhm....I think I don't get it....
1. Having a lower kh means I have to add more CO2 (got it)how much more, my co2 bubbles like crazy already, almost a constant gasleak
2. Adding some kh+ will not help (?)

If my tap water is already kh 8 or more, doesn't that mean that with every WC, I also add kh....can't see the difference.

Please keep it simple for me, I am not a native english speaker.
 
OK, we'll start from the beginning.

KH is a measure of how much dissolved alkaline buffers are in the water.
Alkaline buffers, having a negative charge, attract and hold acid, which have a positive charge, thereby neutralizing acid.

Acid is essentially Hydrogen ion (H+). "+" means It has a positive charge.
Alkaline buffers such as (CO3--) have a negative charge (in this case a double "-" means it has a -2 charge and can therefore attract and hold 2 particles, each having a single "+" or 1 particle having a "+2" charge.
The negative charge of the CO3-- bonds to the H+ so that these positive charges are masked.

When you measure the pH of the water you are measuring the ratio of H+ to a different alkaline substance called Hydroxyl (OH-).

Can you see that when H+ combines with OH- you get [H:OH]? This is water, more commonly written as H2O. Although it's written as H2O it really isn't as if there are two Hs together. The first H+ bonds to the negative side of the OH- but gets as far away from the second H in OH as it can because in this situation they are both positively charged particles and so they repel each other.

In water that has a neutral pH (7) it turns out that there is an equal number of H+ and OH- floating around. At any one time H+ may bond to OH- to form H:OH, and the next moment they get broken apart and return to be free floating H+ and OH-. This happens continuously, however, on average, there will be an equal amount of the two.

When you add acid to this neutral water, a very similar thing happens with that acid. In your pool you would ad HCl which is a powerful acid that disassociates almost entirely into separate H+ and Cl- ions. Sometimes the odd H+ combines with the odd Cl-, but not very often. The H+ mostly hang around looking for trouble.

This "disassociation" changes the ratio of H+ to OH- in that water, so of course, when you measure the pH it will be lowered (acidic).

If we now add CaCO3 to the water, then the CO3-- will have a very strong attraction to the H+. They will combine to form H2CO3, and on average will stay combined. Some will again disassociate, but not very often. When this happens the extra H+ that were added to the water from the HCl addition are now removed from action (ie. they are not floating around as H+ anymore because they are joined to the CO3-- and they do not exert nearly as much positive charge "+" influence). So, if you now measure the pH, it will rise back up towards 7.

This is what happens when you overeat, get an upset stomach and then take some Chinese herb, or Alka-Seltzer in the West. Your stomach produces a lot of acid H+ in response to the food and whatever herb you then swallow HAS to be some form of alkaline buffer. In the case of Alka-Seltzer, or Tums, or whatever, it's just lime or bicarbonate. In your stomach the carbonate or bicarbonate bonds to the H+ and reduces their impact against tissues which are easily damaged by large quantities of positively charged H+.

If you tell me that your water has a low KH then that tells me immediately that there are not very many alkaline buffers in the tank. The CO2 produces a small amount of the weak Carbonic acid, and because there are few buffers in the water the ratio of H+ to -OH rises rapidly and so the pH falls rapidly.

If you then add alkaline buffers to the water, all that happens is that you "mop up" the free floating H+ with the buffers and the pH will rise. You would not have done ANYTHING about the CO2 content just by adding the buffers. You would just be affecting the pH reading that results from the same amount of Carbonic acid.

So when people have low KH water, a very small added amount of CO2, which produces a very small amount of Carbonic acid, has a tremendous impact on the pH because there are few alkaline controls. This would give a false sense of security because the problem in the tank is that there is a very small amount of CO2.

Because pH drop is our only indicator, we have to be aware that small amounts of CO2 generate large amounts of pH drops in water that has no buffer and that conversely, large amounts of CO2 added to water that has high alkalinity only drops the pH a very small amount because in high alkalinity water there is an ARMY of alkaline buffers which immediately mop up the small amounts of H+ from the Carbonic acid.

So, in low alkalinity water, the idea is to drop the pH even more than you would in high alkalinity water specifically because the poor buffering of the water, which results in a large pH drop fools you into thinking that there is a large amount of Carbonic acid produced by large amounts of CO2.

That's why, in the earlier post, I mentioned to you that with such low alkalinity the indication of a 1 pH unit drop was an illusion. The solution cannot possibly be to make the water more alkaline, because all that would do is cause an even smaller pH drop due to the buffers.

When people have medium-high alkalinity water, then the 1 pH unit drop makes sense because it means we must be pouring in a lot of CO2 in order to overcome the alkaline effects of that water. In low KH water it takes hardly any effort at all to overcome the alkalinity, because there aren't sufficient numbers of CO3-- in the water to arrest the fall in pH.

When people have high alkalinity, then we know that if we are able to effect even a minor pH drop of like 0.3 or 0.5 then this tells us we are pumping in a LOT of CO2 because high alkalinity water normally will not budge the pH at all, so if you can move the pH even a small amount then there must be an awful lot of Carbonic acid, which means there must be an awful lot of CO2.

Hope this makes some kind of sense....

Cheers,
 
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Got it now....feel silly way I didn't see it before..

One questoin though. I read a post from Darren that measuring PH with a PH as low as mine is very very very unaccurate or even useless. Can't seem to find that post now...maybe he was talking about a PH pen?..

So how to get an accurate reading for my PH?

And, is there a Pocket Clive for all questions on the road.

Ok ...those where three questions...I'm really thankful for all your time, as I'm sure many others are
 
One questoin though. I read a post from Darren that measuring PH with a PH as low as mine is very very very unaccurate or even useless. Can't seem to find that post now...maybe he was talking about a PH pen?..
pH reagents have a range that they change colors and probes have to be calibrated within a specific range. Bromothymol Blue as you can probably see from the dropchecker, goes yellow at about pH 6, so you'd need a different reagent to measure values below that. Methyl Red goes a few units below that and Thymol Blue a few more units down to about 2. If you are at a LFS then just look at the range that the reagents cover and also look at the ingredients.

For the probes, it's difficult to find calibration fluids that go below about 4. Usually you calibrate the probe from either 4 to 7 or from 7 to 10.

Anyway, that's one of the few good reasons to add CaCO3 to the water, just to keep the pH values up so you can actually measure it accurately.:cool:

Cheers,
 
Well anyway, even without PH measuring, it's obvious that my CO2 is still to low...now it's back to the drawing board to get a better CO2...maybe my filters are to packed with floss, ceramic and carbon? but it shouldn't have an effect on the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water...
My bubble counters are running so fast that no one would ever be able to count the bubbles per second, so is there another (better) way to get CO2 dissolved than putting the CO2 hose directly into the inlet hose to the filter(s)? I've tried a inline diffuser before, but they stopped working after a while....tried normal (in the tank) diffusers which where ok, I just don't like to see so much things in my tank (except for plants, fish rocks, wood, ....;) )
Any good idea is welcome ...
 
Hi Martin,
You need to unpack your filter. Packed filters have a negative effect on flow/distribution. Get rid of most of the ceramic because they are a major drag to flow. In fact, the job of ceramic noodles are to slow the flow so that particulate matter falls out of suspension. Just put in some low drag foam and leave a couple handfuls of carbon in and call it good.

In a fish-only tank, there is no way, other than the sediment and filter media to oxidize NH3/NH4. In a planted tank plants contribute to the removal of NH3/NH4 via direct uptake, so you don't need as much nitrifying bacteria. Flow is much more important. Flow is King.

Cheers,
 
The main reason I am keeping them in is in case the internal filter fails and I am relying on the external filter. I wanted to have enough media in there to keep the fish alive, should the internal impeller seize up (as it has done before).
 
I think I may have to remove my ceramics as well. Was doing some major trimming last night and noticed a little staghorn algae on a couple of leaves (co2/flow issues), at the back mainly and therefore shielded from the main flow of CO2 bubbles and also receiving less flow. Trimmed off the affected leaves.

This prompted an 11pm thorough clean of filter, pipes, rearrangement of media etc and afterwards the difference in flow was amazing! Flow was really good before but had tailed off significantly. Didn't notice this day to day but after the clean last night (and it was only cleaned properly 2/3 weeks ago) I could clearly see why things must be kept 100%.

I even had to throttle the filter back down a little but definitely something to keep a close watch on, even if you think all is tickety boo ;)
 
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