Anyone have fert list to make 2hr aquarist APT Complete please.

[senyk]

@Deano3 how did this mix end up working for you in comparison to apt complete?

I also have a few questions to replicate apt complete specifically for @Zues. and @Hanuman ( thanks for all your detailed help in this thread so far) Its my first time mixing nutrients and I’m using the calculator – I had to change the dose to 4ml daily from 3ml because using potassium sulfate was pushing the solubility too high. (Screenshot attached of what i hope is the final mix)

Context for questions: I am considering GLA’s PPS-Pro EDTA + DTPA package since online it says ph effects iron and it has the macro ferts. I wasn’t sure if that meant just the ph of the fert solution in the bottle or the ph of the tank, so I figured this covered all bases. My fish tank ph ranges from 7.6 to 6.6 reduced w/ Co2 and GH/KH also varies throughout the week as I have seriyu stone leaching minerals into the water rising as the week goes on. I do water changes once every 1-2 weeks with RO water remineralize to 80-90ppm via salty shrimp gh+.

Questions:

• Do either of you agree with my thinking and EDTA + DTPA would be better or should i stick to just EDTA? ( I ask because the EDTA + DTPA option is not contained in the calculator and I don’t want to mess this up by going off on my own and trying a new fert)
• Is the fish tank water ph relevant when selecting nutrients or just the solution in the fert bottle?
• What is the max length of time I can realistically keep nutrients at room temp and what is the best way to extend the max amount of time? ( I was aiming to make a batch that would last me either 26 or 52 weeks, ~750 or ~1500 ml ) It seems like NilocG and APT have found a way to have their ferts not expire rapidly outside of refrigeration, so I’m hopeful I can replicate
• Do I need to shake the nutrients over time or will they always be suspended equally in the solution?
• I know Dennis doesn’t release his trace fert information, but looks like theres a lot of different trace fert options online. How does one pick the best trace fert mix to match what is theoretically in apt complete ( best guess ) and should I be targeting a different one than GLA's? or is there no real way to know this/it doesn’t matter?
• Being that im making an AIO, can i mix everything in a single large container or do i still need to use the special bottles that come in the fert mixing kits and make 500 ml at a time?
  
  Thanks in advance for helping out this newbie!

 

[Hanuman]

Do either of you agree with my thinking and EDTA + DTPA would be better or should i stick to just EDTA? ( I ask because the EDTA + DTPA option is not contained in the calculator and I don’t want to mess this up by going off on my own and trying a new fert)

You can use both is fine or one alone.

Is the fish tank water ph relevant when selecting nutrients or just the solution in the fert bottle?

Not at all, well maybe for Iron chelates and if you use certain chelated traces.

The solution in the fert bottles needs to be acidified so that elements inside the solution don't interact and precipitate out. Anywhere between 3-5PH should be fine. That's why we advise using Ascorbic Acid + potassium sorbate.
Ferts that you add in your tank have absolutely no effect on the PH of your tank water considering the minute amounts you are adding in relation to the tank volume.

What is the max length of time I can realistically keep nutrients at room temp and what is the best way to extend the max amount of time? ( I was aiming to make a batch that would last me either 26 or 52 weeks, ~750 or ~1500 ml ) It seems like NilocG and APT have found a way to have their ferts not expire rapidly outside of refrigeration, so I’m hopeful I can replicate

Well you can't compare what a manufacturer does to what we are doing in our homes. Actual industrial manufacturers have several protocols in place and mixtures that allow them to have a clean end product. When we DIY it's not the same. We introduce patogens and use mild acids. One way to extend the shelf life of DIY fert is to use Sodium benzoate in place of ascorbic acid + potassium sorbate. In principle the DTPA > 10% will acidify the water. DTPA <10% will do the opposite so you need to use higher % Fe DTPA.
We recommend usually that you don't produce fert that last more than 4-8 weeks. Can be more if you are careful etc.

Do I need to shake the nutrients over time or will they always be suspended equally in the solution?

If you see a lot of precipitation through time then it means you did something wrong. If only a little then you could give it a shake. I personally don't bother since I prepare solution every 2-3 months.

I know Dennis doesn’t release his trace fert information, but looks like theres a lot of different trace fert options online. How does one pick the best trace fert mix to match what is theoretically in apt complete ( best guess ) and should I be targeting a different one than GLA's? or is there no real way to know this/it doesn’t matter?

Just pick one, really. They'll all do.

Being that im making an AIO, can i mix everything in a single large container or do i still need to use the special bottles that come in the fert mixing kits and make 500 ml at a time?

If you are going to do an AIO you would always need to acidify the receiving water prior adding anything in it. In any case don't make solution too concentrated.

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

Thanks, but with this method there is no way to avoid weekly water change, accumulation of po4 will be too high ?

The result speak for itself. But is a very nice point… could this regime be refined? could be numbers be tweaked for plain silica sand tanks (inert substrates in general)? @Hanuman; @Happi; @GreggZ… (?)

 

[Zeus.]

The result speak for itself. But is a very nice point… could this regime be refined? could be numbers be tweaked for plain silica sand tanks (inert substrates in general)? @Hanuman; @Happi; @GreggZ… (?)

Yes, if you are making the mix from salts just set the weekly target ppms to what your after in the IFC using the dosing regime of ATP as a guide.

 

[Hanuman]

The result speak for itself. But is a very nice point… could this regime be refined? could be numbers be tweaked for plain silica sand tanks (inert substrates in general)? @Hanuman; @Happi; @GreggZ… (?)

You can virtually set whatever target you want and use the ppm you want with the IFC calculator so the decision is yours to make. You can tweak things to your heart’s content.

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

You can virtually set whatever target you want and use the ppm you want with the IFC calculator so the decision is yours to make. You can tweak things to your heart’s content.

I very used to have only aquarium with plain silica sand (pool filter sand, thickiest)… my feeling is that this method is more sensitive to micros and phosphates that a active soil migh be for example. Maybe I am wrong to… Sorry @Hanuman I will need to study more about this calculator, never was able to use it I am a little dumb for it and fell like its no so user-friendly design.

 

[Zeus.]

I very used to have only aquarium with plain silica sand (pool filter sand, thickiest)… my feeling is that this method is more sensitive to micros and phosphates that a active soil migh be for example.

Correct, as the active soil acts as a buffer which soaks up excess nutrients which are not used and also many AquaSoils (AS) also have nutrients also.

I will need to study more about this calculator, never was able to use it I am a little dumb for it and fell like its no so user-friendly design.

It was tough call when we did the IFC calculator, anything we did to make it user to use took away functions which was critical to make it work well. So we decided to make just one version that did the job comprehensively from cloning commercial ferts/remineralising agents to making your our prescription/regime of macros and/or micros, which took many many hours. It has a steep learning curve but IMO well worth mastering, also it helps if you have a good understanding of plants nutrients. So not 'newbie' friendly but @Hanuman did do a great job on the user interface IMO considering we was using Excel.

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

Isn’t this N ratio a bit in the razor edge?? 7,20no3 and 2,8 po4 weekly is a 2,5 ratio… this is the lowest i have seen (have seen around 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16:1 ratios). Even 0 P and N recipes…. what do you think guys? I would not cause blue-green algae, green dust algae, etc?

 

[Hanuman]

Isn’t this N ratio a bit in the razor edge?? 7,20no3 and 2,8 po4 weekly is a 2,5 ratio… this is the lowest i have seen (have seen around 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16:1 ratios). Even 0 P and N recipes…. what do you think guys? I would not cause blue-green algae, green dust algae, etc?

My dosing at some point:

No problems there. Don't get stuck in hearsay or heresy

 

[MichaelJ]

Isn’t this N ratio a bit in the razor edge?? 7,20no3 and 2,8 po4 weekly is a 2,5 ratio… this is the lowest i have seen (have seen around 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16:1 ratios). Even 0 P and N recipes…. what do you think guys? I would not cause blue-green algae, green dust algae, etc?

7.2 NO3 / 4.43 = 1.6 N 2.8 PO4 / 3.06 = 0.92 P, thats actually close to an NP ratio of 1.7. In one of my tanks I am dosing an NP ratio of 13 (from Tropica Specialized) and in the other 4.5 (DIY: MgNO3 + KH2PO4). Back in the day when I was dosing an abundance of everything I didn’t pay attention to ratios, but with my current very lean dosing regime it appears to have a positive impact. All that being said, I don't think NP ratio is an algae trigger either way. It’s just that you don’t really need much P relative to N apparently contingent on other factors as well such as soft and acidic water.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

My dosing at some point:
View attachment 208012
View attachment 208013
No problems there. Don't get stuck in hearsay or heresy

So urea is 20% of your N regime right? If I got this you mean you dose 3,33ppm NO3 + 20% of this value as N of Urea, right? I used to roll my tanks with k>n (e.i. style) but starting to reflect more on ratios, because I feel that if stability and consistency are important, lean should be the friendly path. Do you have algae issues? what types of algae? when I go closer to 4:1 and down N ratio I got blue-green algae… I do use only KNO3 though. Do you think could be the issue? I use only plain silica sand (pool filter sand) and have weekly Fe+micros (as a proxy) at 0.030 too. Some times I get hair algae.

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

7.2 NO3 / 4.43 = 1.6 N 2.8 PO4 / 3.06 = 0.92 P, thats actually close to an NP ratio of 1.7. In one of my tanks I am dosing an NP ratio of 13 (from Tropica Specialized) and in the other 4.5 (DIY: MgNO3 + KH2PO4). I am glad it turns out I don't have to dose more than absolutely necessary to keep my plants healthy. Back in the day when I was dosing an abundance of everything I didn’t pay attention to ratios, but with my current very lean dosing regime it appears to have a positive impact. All that being said, I don't think NP ratio is an algae trigger either way. It’s just that you don’t really need much P relative to N apparently contingent on other factors as well such as soft and acidic water.

Cheers,
Michael

That ratio is interesting… I read a paper about N ratio on algae spores germination once, if I not mistaken 12:1 ratio where the point that none of the several algae species spores where activated and grown… I think this could be the reason why this ratio “traditionally” have been around the 10:1 or wider spectrum. That why I feel a little shocked about that 2.3 ratio… but results speak for themself in the case of this product (APT line).

 

[Hanuman]

So urea is 20% of your N regime right? If I got this you mean you dose 3,33ppm NO3 + 20% of this value as N of Urea, right?

Here you go.

Do you have algae issues?

I do not on my plants. Do I have a some algae on my glass at weeks end, yeah a bit, but nothing to dwell upon and nothing that bothers me.

I used to roll my tanks with k>n (e.i. style) but starting to reflect more on ratios, because I feel that if stability and consistency are important, lean should be the friendly path.

I have absolutely no beef with water column "lean dosing". My problem with this lean dosing mania is that people kind of put everything in the same basket and then claim that lean dosing is superior or allows you this or that. You can't compare a high tech tank with a low tech tank (high CO2 high light vs no or little CO2 and say medium light). You can in fact lean dose a high tech tank with high CO2 when using a rich substrate for the first few weeks/months, but you will soon understand that's not going to cut it unless you keep enriching the substrate. If on the other hand you are planning on cutting on CO2 and probably also on some light, then yeah lean dosing all the way baby, but it's important to always state your light and CO2 inputs else it can be misleading. If I lean dosed my high tech tank where I have high CO2 and high light with the N, P and K values that some dose here, I can guarantee my plants would be dead a long time ago or would look like crap in no time.

when I go closer to 4:1 and down NO3 ratio I got blue-green algae…

If getting rid of BGA, or more accurately cyanobacteria, was just about an increase or reduction of NO3 then it would all be very easy. Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. I can also get BGA at high NO3 levels.

I do use only KNO3 though. Do you think could be the issue?

It's a multifactorial issue although I have noticed that higher temperatures play a major role in triggering BGA episodes. In my case BGA will appear predictably every year at the same time when the summer arrives. It's always contained between the glass and the substrate though. I have very rarely seen BGA on my plants.

 

[Wookii]

I have noticed that higher temperatures play a major role in triggering BGA episodes

I think BGA is pretty closely related to DO levels (or at least DO levels are a strong contributing factor). Is seems to proliferate in areas where DO is the lowest, but it still has access to light (e.g. below substrate level or circulation dead spots), or when DO levels in a tank are naturally lower (e.g. on tank start up before plant photosynthesis is in full tilt, or when there are tank issues that limit photosynthesis). It would seem to concur with your experiences since higher temps will result in lower DO in the water column also.

 

[Hanuman]

I think BGA is pretty closely related to DO levels (or at least DO levels are a strong contributing factor). Is seems to proliferate in areas where DO is the lowest, but it still has access to light (e.g. below substrate level or circulation dead spots), or when DO levels in a tank are naturally lower (e.g. on tank start up before plant photosynthesis is in full tilt, or when there are tank issues that limit photosynthesis). It would seem to concur with your experiences since higher temps will result in lower DO in the water column also.

Yes totally possible.

 

[Zeus.]

I did so reading around on NPK... ratios in the past and came to conclusion that there isnt a magic one for our tanks. Watch your plants and if they look good all is well, regular WC and removal of detritus and good flow esp for high tech tank.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

or when DO levels in a tank are naturally lower

Purely anecdotal, but you get a lot of cyanobacteria in waste water treatment, where you have a huge BOD (often about 300 mg/L in the incoming effluent). <"Cyanobacterial blooms in wastewater treatment facilities: Significance and emerging monitoring strategies"*>. When it is sunny <"the flocs float to the top of settlement ponds etc">.

This paper is quite interesting <"https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4931/25/1/68/pdf">

...... Chl-a (chlorophyll a) was used as an indicator of cyanobacterial blooms, and dissolved oxygen was used as an indicator of water quality. Dissolved oxygen was generated using Sentinel 2 dataset. For the present study, two wetlands, Wadhwana and Timbi, in Vadodara City, Gujarat, India, were assessed from 2018 to 2022. Analysis showed that dissolved oxygen is an important environmental factor that influences cyanobacteria abundance. It was seen that the increased concentration of chlorophyll a was associated with a reduction in dissolved oxygen and hence deteriorated the water quality........

* I've actually just found that I've posted a link to it before (in 2021) I had no recollection of the <"post or the paper">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

@DudeFromPantanal see if this is useful. When N to P ratio was kept at 13:1 along with low iron level, not just cyano but many other types of algaes stop growing when I was experimenting with it.

Dosing at 4 to 1 N to P ratio, cyanobacteria didn't occur all the time, but it did occur more often compared to 13 to 1 where it almost never occurred.

We should also consider other factors including oxidizing, precipitation of Fe, P etc. Whenever someone claims that they add so much P without issues, the very first suspect to look for is if their aquarium is high risk for oxidization and precipitation. We should also consider what type of substrates is being used.

 

[MichaelJ]

@DudeFromPantanal see if this is useful. When N to P ratio was kept at 13:1 along with low iron level, not just cyano but many other types of algaes stop growing when I was experimenting with it.

Dosing at 4 to 1 N to P ratio, cyanobacteria didn't occur all the time, but it did occur more often compared to 13 to 1 where it almost never occurred.

Hi @Happi, While N vs. P may play a role as an enabler for better plant health (specifically keeping P low vs. micros), I wonder if the algae issue is really mostly about Fe vs. P interaction (specifically high levels of Fe). I used to struggle with GSA on my slow growers back in the day while dosing around 2.5 ppm of P and 0.7 ppm Fe and the "prescription" was to pummel the tank with P, it helped but I had to keep it high all the time to keep the GSA out. When I switched over to lean I gradually lowered my P and Fe - (in one tank its now 0.08 ppm and Fe 0.055 ppm.) and the GSA didn't reemerge - nor did any other algae for that matter.

In any event, I don't think Tropica's choice of 13:1 N relative to P is an arbitrary choice without merit.


Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

I did so reading around on NPK... ratios in the past and came to conclusion that there isnt a magic one for our tanks. Watch your plants and if they look good all is well, regular WC and removal of detritus and good flow esp for high tech tank.

I agree to the extent that keeping stable water parameters and perform proper maintenance is the high-order bit for success - however, when that has been accomplished you can take it further by tweaking your fertilizers.

Cheers,
Michael