Apistogramma Trifasciata breeding

[Jorge O'Reilly]

I've been asking a bunch of dumb questions and adding new threads for the last few days, I'm terribly sorry about the clutter.

I have a male and two females. One is spawning already in the only available "cave like" spot. The other has a territory, and I'm about to go pick up a broken pot or piece of crockery from a ceramics workshop. Is there any chance at all of having two simultaneous breeding females? Should I avoid it as it will lead to heightened aggression? I actually figured it would break it up a bit, since she is already yellow and chases the male all the way to the spawning cave, which naturally outrages the current breeding female.

The tank is 100 cm wide, and the current spawned cave is roughly 15 cm off the left hand side. I've a place to put the pot at the very end on the right hand.

 

[MichaelJ]

Is there any chance at all of having two simultaneous breeding females? Should I avoid it as it will lead to heightened aggression?

Yes, but a lot depends on the layout of your tank. They are pretty feisty when breeding. It also depends a lot on whether your are interested in actually raising the fry. If you get the eggs to hatch, that is - which depends on water parameters for sure... soft water hence low'ish TDS (<100 ppm ?) seems to be mandatory - they might not last long until they succumb to predation from the other fish in your tank.

Darrel/@dw1305 would know about this as I believe he used to be (or perhaps still is?) an avid Apistogramma keeper.

I've been asking a bunch of dumb questions and adding new threads for the last few days, I'm terribly sorry about the clutter.

Don't worry about that - also there are no dumb questions - only dumb answers... we all have different levels of experiences around here - and in different areas.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

Thank you for the answer! Tankmates capable of eating fry are just two gymno juveniles. As soon as I see as much as a fin pop from behind that spawning spot, they'll promptly be kicked out into another tank. That would just leave the apistogrammas. I don't really need 100% survival rates, but I would like some to make it.

As for the layout, I did not get what I wanted, so I made a few changes and made a half decent cave. Even if the male continues to reject the remaining female, It breaks down the line of sight a bit further.

Full tank - female checking out the new cave x2

It has a clump of old moss I'd tossed into a daphnia culture, absolutely unaesthetic but it'll sort itself out i suppose.

Edit: I've just bought a PH and TDS meter. With money I did not have, that is to say, credit. Possibly the worst idea ever. But hey, you pay that after your paycheck comes, and law students don't really have to eat.

 

[MichaelJ]

Thank you for the answer! Tankmates capable of eating fry are just two gymno juveniles. As soon as I see as much as a fin pop from behind that spawning spot, they'll promptly be kicked out into another tank. That would just leave the apistogrammas. I don't really need 100% survival rates, but I would like some to make it.

As for the layout, I did not get what I wanted, so I made a few changes and made a half decent cave. Even if the male continues to reject the remaining female, It breaks down the line of sight a bit further.

Full tank - female checking out the new cave x2

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View attachment 216188

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It has a clump of old moss I'd tossed into a daphnia culture, absolutely unaesthetic but it'll sort itself out i suppose.

For the fry to get a sporting chance I would say you need more dense hiding places. Moss is ok when they are tiny but later it wont be enough.

By Gymno I assume you mean Black Widow Tetras?... they are micro predators, they will eat anything that fit in their mouth.

Also, I would dense up the plant mass just in general. It will lower the chance of the two pairs getting into skirmishes... even among the paired up males and females.

Edit: I've just bought a PH and TDS meter. With money I did not have, that is to say, credit. Possibly the worst idea ever.

Yes... this hobby can set you back quite a bit of money along the way... Well, I do not know what you got but even reasonably ones are fairly cheap these days and it will last for a long time.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

No, it's not much lol. I'm just exceedingly broke. In US dollars, 30 bucks. Minimum salary here is 200 usd.

Gymnos are cichlids as well. Gymnogeophagus meridionalis.

Ok on the plant mass. I'll get to it.

Thank you!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Darrel/@dw1305 would know about this as I believe he used to be (or perhaps still is?) an avid Apistogramma keeper.

I don't have any at the moment, but I will again at some point. A happy male A. trifasciata is a truly beautiful fish.

Apistogramma trifasciata are relatively unproblematic to keep in terms of feeding and water parameters, but they really don't like one another, so you need a lot of structure to break up line of sight.

The males harass the females unrelentingly and the females also fight with each other. In terms of the male : male interaction we are pretty much in Siamese Fighter territory.

cheers Darrel

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

Started breaking the line of sight with some leaf litter, I have more in a culture but I want to add slowly. Plants will have to wait till Monday, I'm afraid. Agression levels are low, though, for now at least. The only issue is the second female REALLY wants some... "attention", and the male does not seem interested.

Also bought a sponge filter. Currently just standing there, hopefully it'll start to grow some bacteria from the flow in its immediate vicinity. Still, the fry won't be free swimming for a while, if they hatch at all. Air pump should be coming relatively soon.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
He looks really nice.

The only issue is the second female REALLY wants some... "attention", and the male does not seem interested.

The female initiates spawning, you will turn more sideways with her belly towards the male and he will either respond or ignore her. The problems usually come when the male is ready to spawn, but the female isn't, at that point he will try to drive her out of his territory, so that another receptive female can come in.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

The problems usually come when the male is ready to spawn, but the female isn't, at that point he will try to drive her out of his territory, so that another receptive female can come in.

Very true. Thats why lots of hardscape / plants is key to break line of sight and offer hiding places for the one that is chased.

Yeah, I remember those days... makes me wish I was young again

male interaction we are pretty much in Siamese Fighter territory.

Same thing with many cichlasoma cichlids... Two mature males - especially if one or both are paired up - in the same tank just wont work.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

I would fiddle with two males and several females only if I had a REALLY big tank. A friend is currently prepping a 700 liter monster. Unfortunately, he likes flashier stuff, most likely discus... He'll come around, I've been whispering in his ear for a couple of years now.

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

SUCCESS! I see six or seven but among the Vals it's hard to tell, there might be twenty or more and I'd never know. Free swimming already. I thought I'd lost the spawn, since the female had vacated the cave... Damn fish. Next time I breed something it'll be in a bare glass box with football stadium light shining on it, I cannot handle this level of uncertainty twice.

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

This is the first time I've bred fish since I was 12 and had bettas and jewel cichlids... In a pretty much bare tank with just floating plants. Man, I feel like a kid again. Thankfully, I'm not remotely as ill advised as I was then...

 

[Bradders]

Sounds like time for a glass of wine! (Or champagne).

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

So, here's an update. I've cleaned out the filter coarse sponge thoroughly, and I am only using it at night while the plants are consuming oxygen, so as to provide some surface movement and not have the fish suffocate. Unlikely, but I'd rather be on the safe side, I've never stocked this heavily. Stopped cleaning the front glass pane, which you will undoubtedly notice, started dosing some minimal ferts, a couple grains of urea between the time I wake up and the light go on, which is 7:30, and I extended the photoperiod. I want algae, and bugs and critters for the fry to munch on. They visibly grow by the day. You usually only see ten or so, but today I managed to count up to 22, so there could be as many as 30, they hide extremely well. Today the female stopped allowing the male to approach the fry, she used to until yesterday evening. She won't aggressively chase him off, she sort of begs for distance with her fins which I find very funny. She's Lucifer incarnate with anyone else.

Tried feeding sour paste microworms, I don't think they are interested in that yet. They seem big enough, but who knows.

This video has terrible quality. Absolutely terrible. My sister might swing by tonight, I'll ask for her Iphone, my old battered Motorola just won't cut it. I can't be trusted with a high-end phone, they tend to end up in a river.



EDIT: I cleaned out the sponge because since flow won't be going through it constantly, I did not want the bacterial colonies in it to die and spike my ammonia. The sponge stays to provide a measure of protection for the fry, it stops the inflow somewhat. They never go that high in the water column though so I could get away with it running 24/7 I suppose.

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

That hunter instinct won't be lacking. Had a population explosion on the culture, since I've been gone a week or so it's the only one that survived and I cannot afford a crash, so I removed a solid glassful and let 'em have at it. Also, staring at the ensuing pandemonium like a doofus was a bonus.

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

I'm liking the mucky natural style. Behaviour really changes. Drop a spot of moina in and they really forage and hunt on another level, and it lasts for a good long while. Since the moina can disperse and hide, fry can actually compete against the parents and the Nannostomus.

Sound off for optimal mental health. My phone is breathing its last (I'll keep it till it dies)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm liking the mucky natural style.

That looks perfect, with some very healthy looking fish.

cheers Darrel

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

Hi all,

That looks perfect, with some very healthy looking fish.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel. By Monday I'm pretty sure I'll be having a second spawn. The female is round as a football and they both hang around the cave, shimmying as they enter and exit. This time, I'll remove the eggs and have a go at raising them separately. I don't think more than 15 remain from the first 25+ hatched ones.

 

[bazz]

This time, I'll remove the eggs and have a go at raising them separately. I don't think more than 15 remain from the first 25+ hatched ones.

I would have thought that is a pretty good survival ratio, especially as the fish are doing the hard work for you?

 

[AlecF]

I wonder if fish raised around parents learn better feeding techniques, as seems true with cories?