Base Layer: Tropica Aquacare or ADA Powersand special?

[NeilW]

No, adding plenty of plants and allowing a 2-3 weeks or time to pass prior to adding the shrimp, should be fine.
Plant and bacteria will keep the NH4 down.

I'm going in for the dry-startup method over 3-4 weeks and intend to be hot on daily water changes for when its eventually filled so hopefully this won't be an issue.

In the 'ideal' Japanese breeding setup for CRS they don't add any ferts so I'm guessing in the planted tank any fertiliser is a risk vs. compromise.

I've raise and bred CRS as have many using ADA AS which is loaded with NH4.
I've also dosed typical EI and went from 12 to 50 shrimp a in a few months with other fish present.
So seems like there's little risk once the plants/bacteria are established, the rest is manure rubbish adn fear mongering.

I think some of the real issue with hyper sensitivity in these and few other shrimp has to do with POOR breeding and genetics. They inbreed way too much and do not out cross with other lines to produce a nice high grade + a tougher shrimp that can handle a wide range of aquarium parameters.

I think this makes much more sensible explanation then breeders blindly blaming peoples water 'quality'; as you say rather they shouldn't be breeding ultra-sensitive stock with weak genetics that need to be spoon fed to be kept alive. I am interested in breeding healthy animals so try to buy in new stock from different sources to help with the bloodline, I even go for a mix of grades. Did you have any more tips from your breeding experience? Would it even be an idea to introduce a couple of wild type bee shrimp?

In my limited experience I try to maintain high standards of water quality for all my livestock with frequent maintenance so have yet to notice the supposed sensitivity of CRS. Im guessing my gauge is if its not good enough for the shrimp its not good enough for anything else. I only read about the sensitivity CRS can have to ferts on the internet- trouble is I tend to be paranoid if I find any unknown factors that could affect the shrimp, so you have been greatly reassuring!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I don't think I wrote?

"In the 'ideal' Japanese breeding setup for CRS they don't add any ferts so I'm guessing in the planted tank any fertiliser is a risk vs. compromise."

my view would be much more

I've not kept Bee shrimps in tanks with Osmocote in the substrate, but the slow release nature of it should mean that you won't get a big release of ammonia even if the nitrogen source is ammonium nitrate. This is also the reason for having a substrate component with high CEC, it will act as a buffer, absorbing nutrients when they are in excess, and potentially exchanging them later for other ions.

which I certainly wrote earlier in the post.

I'd also agree with the genetic comments, I think that the CRS were all selectively bred from 1 original mutation (presumably by back-crossing the F1 and parent), so it would be surprising if they were very robust. Via that unimpeachable source Wikipedia

In 1996, Mr. Hisayasu Suzuki of Japan discovered a red form of Caridina sp. among the usual black form offspring. He registered "crystal red shrimp" as a trademark for this autosomal recessive red mutation of the normal bee shrimp. The variety has gained wide popularity since in Japan and worldwide and has been further refined by the founder and other breeders to produce specimens with larger white patches and intensified red. In Japan they are often known as Red Bee Shrimps.

Personally I prefer the look of the lower grade ones with more red markings and even more than them I like the wild type "black and white" Bumblebee shrimp.

The autosomal recessive bit suggests that if you do breed them with the wild type (RR) the only red ones (rr) will be the double recessive, so you wouldn't actually add any new genes. The F1 could be hardier, but they would all be heterozygous (Rr) and their phenotype would be black and white. If you then crossed the F1 generation you would get RR Rr rR rr, but only those with both autosomal recessive genes (rr) would be CRS, the other 3 genotypes would be black and white Bumblebee.

cheers Darrel

 

[NeilW]

Hi all,
I don't think I wrote?

"In the 'ideal' Japanese breeding setup for CRS they don't add any ferts so I'm guessing in the planted tank any fertiliser is a risk vs. compromise."

That was me who wrote such a thing, was only an observation from the various CRS sites out there

The autosomal recessive bit suggests that if you do breed them with the wild type (RR) the only red ones (rr) will be the double recessive, so you wouldn't actually add any new genes. The F1 could be hardier, but they would all be heterozygous (Rr) and their phenotype would be black and white. If you then crossed the F1 generation you would get RR Rr rR rr, but only those with both autosomal recessive genes (rr) would be CRS, the other 3 genotypes would be black and white Bumblebee.

So it wouldn't be in the interest of a commercial breeder at all because they would be investing a lot of time and effort in the remote possibly that the new rr would be hardier? I don't think it would work for me either at the moment, I don't have the tanks available for the challenge!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[dw1305]

Re: CRS

Hi all,
I've had a bit more of a think about this, and I now do think that you possibly could breed a much hardier CRS by crossing with the wild type.

I'm going to make the assumption that the gene that is "turned off" is the one that makes the other colour with red to give black (the shrimp are technically "erythristic"). It may be that the colour gene is linked to other genes which give a hardier shrimp (an example would be if the CRS lack the ability to synthesise a digestive enzyme etc.), or it's presence turned on gives a healthier shrimp (if you think of a condition like human albinism, another single gene mutation, albinos are prone to skin cancers, eye damage etc.) If this is the case all the CRS will be less fit and there would be nothing you could do about it.

If the normal type (R) colour gene isn't linked to other genes, and doesn't inherently make the CRS less fit, then breeding with healthier bumblebee shrimps would give you a range of variation, including the possibility that at least some of the offspring of the F2 (and subsequent generations) would have the "fittest" genes from both parents, and the erythristic (r) colour gene to make them fit and hardy CRS.

cheers Darrel

 

[NeilW]

Cheers Darrel, may even be a venture I eventually end up doing although its sounds like an awful lot of work. Wonder if people would be interested in the 'super' CRS...

Thanks again for your advice,
Neil

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
If you do cross Black & White Bumblebee in, you would need to isolate the offspring and then allow them to breed together, taking out some proportion of the "wild type" in every generation. You won't be able to tell what colour genes the black and white carry (they could be homozygous RR or heterozygous - Rr or rR) but all the CRS will be rr. By selecting for health (this bit will be tricky, particularly because of the difficulty in sexing) you should be ableto breed a healthier CRS (assuming that the CRS colour gene doesn't make the shrimp inherently less fit) over time (so far the shrimps have been selectively bred to be a higher grade so far rather than for fitness and health).
cheers Darrel