Cycling confusion

[Aly14]

Here's a tip to speed up cycling. Buy some weed-like stem plants first. Fill a 20 litre bucket of water. dump the plants into the bucket, letting them float is fine (more access to CO2 at the surface)

Nutrient removal by Rotala rotundifolia: a superior candidate for ecosystem remediation at low temperatures

Temperature is an extremely important factor affecting the nutrient (mainly nitrogen and phosphorus) removal of aquatic macrophytes. A novel submersed Rotala rotundifolia was separately cultivated at room and low temperatures to investigate its ability ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Have a look at some material of using aquatic plants for phytoremediation . These plants are so tough scientists are more worried that these plants are unkillable and become an invasive species

Please forgive my ignorance, I'm trying to get my head around how this all works. Is the purpose of putting the plants in the bucket to increase their growth, whilst I wait for my tank? Would this potentially increase the growth of beneficial bacteria? Could I then do a somewhat shortened dark start? Possibly halve the time, do a large WC and plant heavily with the stem plants? I'm assuming these plants would help with the nitrogen cycle and essentially cleaning the water. After allowing these plants to establish, would it then be feasible to plant slower growing plants? Please do let me know if I'm completely wrong.

That is a really interesting paper. I quite like the look of Rotala rotundifolia, so it could potentially serve a dual purpose.

The dark start is a way for you to get passed the more chaotic days of the setup period without worrying about triggering algae. But in my experience, not having the tank lights on was enough, no need for a blanket. Also, two weeks is probably enough if you are in a hurry, it is still two weeks safer than having the lights on from day one. It doesn’t need to be planting on day one vs planting after months, everything in between exists and the benefits are proportional to how long you wait. That’s how I see it, anyways.

Would the amount of light the tank receives determine whether or not it can be left uncovered? The room which my tank will be in, receives a lot of natural light (not direct light). So, I'm wondering if it would be best to keep my tank covered?

If I were to do a 2 week dark start, at the end of that time, would it be recommended to do a full (or near full) WC? After this, would I then heavily plant my tank, and do regular 50% WC?

 

[AlecF]

Can someone send a link to a sprinkle ramp, that's a new one to me. One issue I find with all the good advice about flow is I have ember tetras and they hate that, huffing in a corner. I have a spray bar at one side of a shallow 100 litre. I direct the water upwards to hit the Euro-ledges–braces (I know not everyone has them)– and bubble the water at that edge, creating some flow, but it doesn't fully reach the outlet at the far corner. I notice a lot of algae on the plants by the spray bar, which I wouldn't expect. I'm reluctant to add an additional pump creating flow because of the embers, but I do usually have 2 sponge filters and sometimes an airstone, as the upward bubbles don't bother the fish. Anyway, just butting in with these newbie puzzles.

 

[erwin123]

Please forgive my ignorance, I'm trying to get my head around how this all works. Is the purpose of putting the plants in the bucket to increase their growth, whilst I wait for my tank? Would this potentially increase the growth of beneficial bacteria? Could I then do a somewhat shortened dark start? Possibly halve the time, do a large WC and plant heavily with the stem plants? I'm assuming these plants would help with the nitrogen cycle and essentially cleaning the water. After allowing these plants to establish, would it then be feasible to plant slower growing plants? Please do let me know if I'm completely wrong.

That is a really interesting paper. I quite like the look of Rotala rotundifolia, so it could potentially serve a dual purpose.

Ah sorry, I think I didn't complete typing my sentence - dumping various unwanted stem plants (plants also come with bacteria) in a bucket and leaving it for a few days is one way to 'season' the tap water. The good news is the Rotala Rotundfolia as outlined in the linked paper does pretty well in cold weather so you might not even need a heater for those in cold countries.

 

[Aly14]

Ah sorry, I think I didn't complete typing my sentence - dumping various unwanted stem plants (plants also come with bacteria) in a bucket and leaving it for a few days is one way to 'season' the tap water. The good news is the Rotala Rotundfolia as outlined in the linked paper does pretty well in cold weather so you might not even need a heater for those in cold countries.

Oh, I think I understand what you mean. So after leaving the plants in the bucket for a few days, I would add that water to my tank? Is that at all similar to using filter media from an established tank? I'm assuming it wouldn't contain the number or diversity of beneficial bacteria, but would still help to kick-start the cycle.

If I were to purchase plants in advance, how long would I be able to keep them before planting?

 

[PARAGUAY]

As far as l know adding water doesn't compare to adding seeded filter media which holds mature beneficial bacteria Plants in buckets depends on the plant,my experience with Java Fern,left in a greenhouse in a heatwave they thrived, some will suffer after a while thinking some stems with ambient light may go downhill

 

[_Maq_]

Could I then do a somewhat shortened dark start?

People (and even the manufacturer) generally recommend multiple water changes when using Amazonia or similar soils because they release a lot of various substances in the beginning and the development of microbial community is really stormy.
Dark start without plants has the advantage that you don't have to do many water changes during that period. Various microbes will proliferate and then largely die-off without doing any damage to plants which are not present. So, dark start is a way for a patient and lazy hobbyist.
Yes, you can shorten this period. There is no fixed and generally agreed number of days it should last. The longer the safer. In fact, it takes much longer (many months) until the tank gets truly matured.
It is true that plants can help to decrease the contents of mineral substances. Organic substances, on the other hand, are their enemies as they support development of heterotrophic and mixotrophic microbes (incl. algae). Therefore, the earlier you put plants in your tank, the more important are big and frequent water changes and good oxygenation. On the other hand, there's no hurry in dosing fertilizers.

 

[Aly14]

As far as l know adding water doesn't compare to adding seeded filter media which holds mature beneficial bacteria Plants in buckets depends on the plant,my experience with Java Fern,left in a greenhouse in a heatwave they thrived, some will suffer after a while thinking some stems with ambient light may go downhill

I don't think it would compare either. Unfortunately I don't have access to seeded filter media. I'm hoping water from plants in a bucket might achieve a similar, albeit lessened result.
Thanks for your info on the plants. Do you think putting stem plants near an LED lamp or something similar, would prolong how long I could keep then?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Have a look at some material of using aquatic plants for phytoremediation . These plants are so tough scientists are more worried that these plants are unkillable and become an invasive species

That is both the advantage and the issue, really good plants for phytoremediation <"Stopping the World’s Worst Aquatic Weed – Northeastern University Political Review"> are always going to be potentially invasive aliens. Salvinia "auriculata group", Pistia stratiotes and Eichornia crassipes are the main culprits / candidates, but Phragmites australis, Myriophyllum spicatum are also in this category.

My cats also view anything covered in a blanket as a comfy new bed.

A few of us have <"been there">. We still "own" the <"same light diffuser">.

I'm now at a stage where I'm torn between doing a dark start or cycling with plants. The dark start sounds like a safer method, particularly as I will be using ADA AS.

Would this potentially increase the growth of beneficial bacteria? Could I then do a somewhat shortened dark start? Possibly halve the time, do a large WC and plant heavily with the stem plants? I'm assuming these plants would help with the nitrogen cycle and essentially cleaning the water. After allowing these plants to establish, would it then be feasible to plant slower growing plants? Please do let me know if I'm completely wrong.

No, you are not wrong, that is it.

Normally at this point I'd <"suggest a floating plant">, if you don't want a dark start, but this is quite tricky in Australia, because they have biosecurity laws and some states have banned most potential invasives, even Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) <"Amazon frogbit | Business Queensland"> & <"Amazon Frogbit"> and Eichornia spp. are a definite non-starter <"https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/declared-plants/water-hyacinth-declared-pest">. Nile Cabbage (Pistia stratiotes) is an interesting one, because it may be native to Queensland and the Northern Territory <"Profile">.

So after leaving the plants in the bucket for a few days, I would add that water to my tank? Is that at all similar to using filter media from an established tank? I'm assuming it wouldn't contain the number or diversity of beneficial bacteria, but would still help to kick-start the cycle.

As far as l know adding water doesn't compare to adding seeded filter media which holds mature beneficial bacteria

It is, but with @PARAGUAY's caveat, I'd always choose seeded media if that was an option.

If it isn't (like in @Aly14's case) after that it is back to <"secret ingredient soup"> <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/correspondence-with-dr-ryan-newton-school-of-freshwater-sciences-university-of-wisconsin—milwaukee.71023/#post-711430"> and @_Maq_ 's longer growing period.

cheers Darrel

 

[Aly14]

People (and even the manufacturer) generally recommend multiple water changes when using Amazonia or similar soils because they release a lot of various substances in the beginning and the development of microbial community is really stormy.
Dark start without plants has the advantage that you don't have to do many water changes during that period. Various microbes will proliferate and then largely die-off without doing any damage to plants which are not present. So, dark start is a way for a patient and lazy hobbyist.
Yes, you can shorten this period. There is no fixed and generally agreed number of days it should last. The longer the safer. In fact, it takes much longer (many months) until the tank gets truly matured.
It is true that plants can help to decrease the contents of mineral substances. Organic substances, on the other hand, are their enemies as they support development of heterotrophic and mixotrophic microbes (incl. algae). Therefore, the earlier you put plants in your tank, the more important are big and frequent water changes and good oxygenation. On the other hand, there's no hurry in dosing fertilizers.

Thank you for that information. I think it's the best explanation of a dark start that I have read. I'm starting to feel more inclined to try it, and once my impatience gets the better of me, I'll switch over to plants.
Just out of curiosity, once I start doing frequent water changes, can that water be used to water my garden? I have noticed that a lot of people talk about water changes, but no one ever mentions where that water goes. I'm from Australia, and saving water is kind of drilled into us from an early age. It would be good to know if that water can be recycled.

No, you are not wrong, that is it. Normally at this point I'd <"suggest a floating plant">, if you don't want a dark start, but this is quite tricky in Australia, because they have biosecurity laws and some states have banned most potential invasives, even Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) <"Amazon frogbit | Business Queensland"> & <"Amazon Frogbit"> and Eichornia spp. are a definite non-starter <"https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/declared-plants/water-hyacinth-declared-pest">. Nile Cabbage (Pistia stratiotes) is an interesting one, because it may be native to Queensland and the Northern Territory <"Profile"

The biosecurity is very tight, which is usually a good thing. That is until you see a particularly pretty plant online, but realise it's banned, then you start questioning if it's all necessary After a quick Google search it looks like I do have some options for purchasing floating plants. A couple that have come up include Azolla Filiculoides and Phyllanthus Fluitans. Do you know much about these plants?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have noticed that a lot of people talk about water changes, but no one ever mentions where that water goes.

Yes, most people use <"it to water the garden">. I use rainwater in the tanks and in the garden (I only water the containers), but it goes through the tank first. It just means that the tanks get a larger volume water change when it is dry.

Even though it rains a lot in the UK <"water saving"> (and water generally) is quite a live (<"and lively">) issue.

cheers Darrel

 

[Aly14]

Hi all,

Yes, most people use <"it to water the garden">. I use rainwater in the tanks and in the garden (I only water the containers), but it goes through the tank first. It just means that the tanks get a larger volume water change when it is dry.

Even though it rains a lot in the UK <"water saving"> (and water generally) is quite a live (<"and lively">) issue.

cheers Darrel

That is a relief. I think I may have cried a little if I had to pour all that water down the drain.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

A couple that have come up include Azolla Filiculoides and Phyllanthus Fluitans. Do you know much about these plants?

We have some threads for both of them. <"This is Azolla">. It tends to have cycles of growth.

and <"this is one for Phyllanthus fluitans (Red Root Floater)">.

cheers Darrel

 

[LMuhlen]

Would the amount of light the tank receives determine whether or not it can be left uncovered? The room which my tank will be in, receives a lot of natural light (not direct light). So, I'm wondering if it would be best to keep my tank covered?

If I were to do a 2 week dark start, at the end of that time, would it be recommended to do a full (or near full) WC? After this, would I then heavily plant my tank, and do regular 50% WC?

While the general idea behind the dark start sounds very reasonable to me, I can only speak from my very limited experience with it. Last year I rescaped my main tank, located in the middle of my living room. I did a 2 weeks dark start, then made a massive water change and planted. Then after another week or so, I started adding the fishes slowly.

My notes are as follows:
It was the smoothest tank start I have ever had, not a single issue with algae and the plants adapted well. No problem with the fishes either, when they made it back into the tank.
The tank is a peninsula in the center of the living room and receives a lot of indirect sunlight from both sides. It is actually an issue that I have, it is very difficult to take pictures with all the natural brightness. Even then, I didn't cover the tank with a blanket.
I used aqua soil.
I had all my fishes and most of my plants crammed inside a 90L bucket, so I was in a rush to get them back into the tank. I had to keep the canister filtering the bucket, so I actually did this entire tank setup without a filter. I did use two wave makers which generated massive water flow, so oxygenation was as high as it gets, I assume.
After I added the plants, I did normal 50% weekly water changes.

I plan on trying it again, when I start a new planted tank.

 

[_Maq_]

Do you think putting stem plants near an LED lamp or something similar, would prolong how long I could keep then?

There's a golden middle road in it. No direct sunlight and no intense lighting because it can increase temperature inside (greenhouse effect). Still, some light is necessary.
Plants will survive longer in rather cool place; I'd bet btw. 15 and 20 °C would be perfect. Don't be afraid of low temperature.

can that water be used to water my garden?

It fits very well for that purpose.

Even though it rains a lot in the UK <"water saving"> (and water generally) is quite a live (<"and lively">) issue.

I say that climate change will teach us all to value water as a precious commodity. I even hope that one day Europe will say NO to farmers with their selfish policies.

so I actually did this entire tank setup without a filter

My words. Filter is not necessary for biofiltration, really. Microbes will do with substrate (and other interfaces) and do not need any extensive colonization area.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I even hope that one day Europe will say NO to farmers with their selfish policies.

I come from a <"farming background">, but I would agree. I didn't agree <"with BREXIT">, but <"I hate the CAP with all my heart">.

In August 2022 we drove to Norwich (from just E. of Bath) for my daughters graduation. Some bits of S. England (<"Therfield Heath"> etc.) looked like a desert, with no green whatsoever, they were literally chalk white.

All the way from Royston to Norwich (the <"driest part of the UK">) and everything was dried up and brown, except the emerald green irrigated potato and sugar beet fields <"Farmers warned of possible water restrictions after driest February since 1959">.

Many farmers have permanent abstraction licenses and I couldn't help thinking "is that really the best use for that water"? <"Farmers angered as water licences revoked to protect rare wildlife">?

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

He told me that the people who fundamentally understand fish keeping are few and far between. Most of his customers are people who walk in, buy a tank, cycle it, put a few red fish in then neglect their tanks for a few months. Feel guilty, do a water change for a few weeks, decide they want a blue fish and return to the shop. Disappear for a few months, before coming back for a plant and some food.

Yes, I have to make sure I visit (any) LFS at a time when it is going to be quiet, and if it is in a garden centre etc? I try and avoid visiting when its actually open to the public. I need to preserve what little sanity I have left.

I also struggle with the (garden) plant side of popular garden centres, where I have to try really hard to avoid saying anything to either customers or staff.

cheers Darrel

 

[Aly14]

Hi all,

We have some threads for both of them. <"This is Azolla">. It tends to have cycles of growth.

and <"this is one for Phyllanthus fluitans (Red Root Floater)">.

cheers Darrel

Thanks for the links. I'll have a read.

There's a golden middle road in it. No direct sunlight and no intense lighting because it can increase temperature inside (greenhouse effect). Still, some light is necessary.
Plants will survive longer in rather cool place; I'd bet btw. 15 and 20 °C would be perfect. Don't be afraid of low temperature.

I have a room at home which I think would be just right for a bucket full of plants. Do you have a rough estimate of how long they will survive? I will likely have to purchase my plants from various locations, and I imagine they would all arrive at different times. Ideally I would like to place them in my tank all at once, rather than add them as they arrive. If I can store them until I'm ready to use them, that would be ideal.

While the general idea behind the dark start sounds very reasonable to me, I can only speak from my very limited experience with it. Last year I rescaped my main tank, located in the middle of my living room. I did a 2 weeks dark start, then made a massive water change and planted. Then after another week or so, I started adding the fishes slowly.

My notes are as follows:
It was the smoothest tank start I have ever had, not a single issue with algae and the plants adapted well. No problem with the fishes either, when they made it back into the tank.
The tank is a peninsula in the center of the living room and receives a lot of indirect sunlight from both sides. It is actually an issue that I have, it is very difficult to take pictures with all the natural brightness. Even then, I didn't cover the tank with a blanket.
I used aqua soil.
I had all my fishes and most of my plants crammed inside a 90L bucket, so I was in a rush to get them back into the tank. I had to keep the canister filtering the bucket, so I actually did this entire tank setup without a filter. I did use two wave makers which generated massive water flow, so oxygenation was as high as it gets, I assume.
After I added the plants, I did normal 50% weekly water changes.

I plan on trying it again, when I start a new planted tank.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I think I'm about sold on doing the dark start. The less risk involved is appealing.

What I'm still a little unclear on, is how much water do you remove at the end? Do you remove it all, or say 90% of it? Most of what I read have either said do a large WC (which I find is too vague), or 80-90%. Is it easier to plant with only a wet substrate, rather than still have some water in the tank?

 

[LMuhlen]

You won’t ever find hard rules when it comes to aquariums, and if you do find they are probably worth questioning.

it stands to logic that the more water you change, the safer you are, but that should hold for every water change and we look for a compromise between extra safety and what we are willing to do routinely. So change as much as you are comfortable with.

as for planting, I think it is easier to do it with little water, if your plants are small. It is also much easier to attach plants to hard scape when it is out of water.

 

[Aly14]

You won’t ever find hard rules when it comes to aquariums, and if you do find they are probably worth questioning.

it stands to logic that the more water you change, the safer you are, but that should hold for every water change and we look for a compromise between extra safety and what we are willing to do routinely. So change as much as you are comfortable with.

as for planting, I think it is easier to do it with little water, if your plants are small. It is also much easier to attach plants to hard scape when it is out of water.

So, essentially I need to do a little freestyle? I think I can live with that. Hopefully it gives me a better understanding/feeling for how my tank operates.

Would it be fine to drain it down to the substrate? I was hoping to glue some plants to some driftwood and rocks. I have read glue hardens when in contact with water. I was having a hard time trying to figure out how to do that under water.

During the dark start period, are there any benefits to doing a few WCs?

 

[AlecF]

Usually you glue outside the tank and then place in it when it has dried, which takes 10 mins. If you had an ayirstone to the bucket it will help.