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Deficiency

hypnogogia

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Joined
6 Apr 2017
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Location
Oxfordshire
My limnobium is clearly deficient of something, but I’m not sure what. could it be magnesium? It’s all new growth as I cull about 50% every week.

My dosing per week is (in PPM), according to the IFC calculator.
N 3.85
P 1.76

K 12.96
Mg 3.27
Fe 0.492


13CDF2ED-6F19-4093-A062-7AE651EBD965.jpeg
 
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Ah, maybe I don’t have a deficiency at all…

Post in thread 'Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment'
Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment

There are actually frogbit being sold as Tiger Striped frogbit

I was always curious about the tractor tracks or tiger stripes ... I only occasionally see them on my frogbit... and some hobbyists posts pictures that have a lot of them (like yours) but the frogbits are doing fine otherwise. I think it may just be due to genetic variation whether they develop the stripes or not rather than any serious deficiency.

I don't really see any issues with your frogbit to be honest - I wish the photo would be a bit brighter, thats all :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi all,
My limnobium is clearly deficient of something, but I’m not sure what. could it be magnesium?
That is the reticulated pattern we've seen a lot on Limnobium , I think it is the start of iron (Fe) deficiency, <"but it may be magnesium (Mg)"> I don't have any proof.
There are actually frogbit being sold as Tiger Striped frogbit
I saw that today and it made me laugh, I really like the stripes, so if we could get to the bottom of it it would be useful. It's a shame that @Mick.Dk doesn't post any more as he might know the answer.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,

That is the reticulated pattern we've seen a lot on Limnobium , I think it is the start of iron (Fe) deficiency, <"but it may be magnesium (Mg)"> I don't have any proof.

I saw that today and it made me laugh, I really like the stripes, so if we could get to the bottom of it it would be useful. It's a shame that @Mick.Dk doesn't post any more as he might know the answer.
Well, Darrel, "I think it is the start of iron (Fe) deficiency, <"but it may be magnesium (Mg)"> I don't have any proof." Maybe that is the answer... a slight deficiency in Mg or Fe will promote the tiger stripes... As you know, it's not unusual for plant growers to purposely let their plants be, if not in deficit, then lower amount of certain minerals to promote certain colorations or growing patterns etc.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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My limnobium is clearly deficient of something, but I’m not sure what. could it be magnesium? It’s all new growth as I cull about 50% every week.

My dosing per week is (in PPM), according to the IFC calculator.
N 3.85
P 1.76

K 12.96
Mg 3.27
Fe 0.492


View attachment 201018
1676160352850.png


What exactly are you dosing for the Micros ? am not Sure if its fully related to Fe, Mn or Mg at this point, until we could get more detail on the other Parameters and Dosing. you can have several different Deficiency/Toxicity issues going on here at the same time. usually Fe and Mn become more deficient under High PH/KH and I usually give both of these Micros strong importance under such scenarios.
 
View attachment 201082

What exactly are you dosing for the Micros ? am not Sure if its fully related to Fe, Mn or Mg at this point, until we could get more detail on the other Parameters and Dosing. you can have several different Deficiency/Toxicity issues going on here at the same time. usually Fe and Mn become more deficient under High PH/KH and I usually give both of these Micros strong importance under such scenarios.
Thank you @Happi, does this give you what you need?

All in ppm.

Fe 0.5
Mn 0.1
Zn 0.07
B
0.064
Cu 0.014
Mo 0.009
 
My limnobium is clearly deficient of something, but I’m not sure what. could it be magnesium? It’s all new growth as I cull about 50% every week.

My dosing per week is (in PPM), according to the IFC calculator.
N 3.85
P 1.76

K 12.96
Mg 3.27
Fe 0.492


View attachment 201018
In my case, I got this black tiger stripe you have, followed by it losing colour like yours, but then holes, and then melting. I got improvement with dosing chelated iron suitable for my hard water & high PH. Can you provide details of your water parameters , PH before and after CO2 (if you use CO2), KH & GH? It might not be iron, but if you have hard water or high PH it would be more likely.
 
Hi all,
I got improvement with dosing chelated iron suitable for my hard water & high PH.
That has been a <"fairly general finding">.

Have a look at @jameson_uk (with <"traditional apologies">) two Amazon Frogbit threads <"Frogbit taken a turn"> & <"Duckweed Index says Nitrogen please?">.

The only one I know of where new leaf chlorosis wasn't caused by lack of available iron was @Hufsa , where the cause <"was lack of manganese (Mn)"> (in a thread we both contributed to).

cheers Darrel
 
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Fe 0.5
Mn 0.1
Zn 0.07
B 0.064
Cu 0.014
Mo 0.009
The only one I know of where new leaf chlorosis wasn't caused by lack of available iron was @Hufsa , where the cause <"was lack of manganese (Mn)">

Your frogbit looks suspiciously like mine did, with the reticulated pattern of chlorosis, developing into dry/necrotic areas as the deficiency progresses.
Your Mn could be higher compared to your Fe, I would definitely try an increase of this first.
If you make your own ferts then you could just make up a seperate Mn solution booster to increase your weekly addition to 0.25.
A Fe:Mn ratio of about 2:1 seemed to perk up my plants immensely.
 
We should keep in mind that the pale patches and the black tiger stripes may be somewhat separate things, I believe they are.
I am mostly concerned with the pale patches here, and I think the frogbit overall does not look right and like it is being hindered in growth.
I would pay less attention to the black stripes, we arent really sure what causes them, and even invitro cups of frogbit straight from Tropica have stripes.
And those guys should have their fertilizers pretty sorted as they are such a huge commercial grower.
From what ive seen so far frogbit with black stripes dont necessarily have to be unhealthy.
 
A Fe:Mn ratio of about 2:1 seemed to perk up my plants immensely.
Incidentally, that's precisely the Marschner ratio. The problem is that it can't be applied without further consideration as Fe dosing effectiveness is always much lower than 100 %, and in the case of Mn the losses may be more or less significant, too.
Then there's a secondary consideration that apart from definite losses within the filter the rest precipitates in the substrate and forms a long-term pool of nutrients.
As a result, I do not care much and participate in micro-dosing discussions. This is a field where every tank is truly unique.
 
If you make your own ferts then you could just make up a seperate Mn solution booster to increase your weekly addition to 0.25
Thank you.
I use CSM+B that’s made up as follows:
Fe – 7,80%, Mn- 2,00%, B – 1,40%,

Zn- 0,40%, Cu – 0,10%, Mo – 0,06%

E 202 & E 300

EDTA Chelated

I k wo where to get 13% EDTA chelated Mn, but the IFC fern calculator doesn’t allow me to calculate how much I need.
 
I k wo where to get 13% EDTA chelated Mn, but the IFC fern calculator doesn’t allow me to calculate how much I need.
@Hanuman and @Zeus. Have worked this out for me before so sure it's in the IFC calculator.
@Happi also worked it out for me for a 240L tank:
500 ml, 60 ml per 240 liter
0.307 gram Mn EDTA 13%
= Mn 0.02ppm

I'm sure if you give your tank volume , micro bottle size and amount dosed one of these lovely people will assist 😀
 
Then there's a secondary consideration that apart from definite losses within the filter the rest precipitates in the substrate and forms a long-term pool of nutrients.
@_Maq_ this is really interesting to me. Do you believe that plants roots can access and use these nutrients once precipitated? And do you think there's a chance that this precipitate could lead to toxicities?
 
@_Maq_ this is really interesting to me. Do you believe that plants roots can access and use these nutrients once precipitated? And do you think there's a chance that this precipitate could lead to toxicities?
In "Hydroponics - A Practical Guide for the Soilless Grower", they have a section detailing something like this.
Now, hydroponics are of course not exactly the same as aquatic growing, but still I found it interesting to read about.
I'll take the liberty to share the section with you guys :shh: However if one is interested in reading more about nutrients and these kinds of things, I can recommend reading the entire book 😊

Accumulation in the Rooting Medium
It is well known that with each application of a nutrient solution to a rooting medium, whether inorganic (sand, gravel, perlite, rockwool, etc.) or organic (pinebark, peat, coir, etc.), an accumulation of unabsorbed ions takes place. This can be observed by monitoring the EC of the solution exiting or in the rooting medium following a sequence of nutrient solution applications. When that EC measurement reaches a certain level, it is recommended that the rooting medium be leached with water to remove the accumulate. What is not as well known is that another type of accumulation occurs — the formation of precipitates consisting mainly of calcium phosphate and calcium sulfate. As those precipitates form, additional ions can be adsorbed on their surface or chemically combined with the forming precipitates. These precipitates do not contribute to the EC of the medium solution and are not easily leached from the rooting medium by water. The elements in the precipitates then begin to contribute to the elemental nutrition of the growing plant. Roots release acid into the rhizosphere surrounding the root, which dissolves a portion of these precipitates. With time, the accumulated precipitates begin to more strongly influence the plant element nutrition than that being applied by the nutrient solution for some elements. This partially explains why growers seem to lose control of the nutritional character of their crops over time.

My interpretation of this is that yes, the precipitates could affect the plants over time. However we should consider when comparing our systems to hydroponic systems, that we usually use much less nutrients in our water than they do in their water.
But, I suppose a method of fertilization like EI might "sooner" produce precipitate than a leaner method might, purely on the basis of the amount of nutrients being added.
I wonder if this is one of the reasons some people find it useful to periodically clean out their substrate? The commonly cited reason is detritus etc (another debate is on whether detritus is all bad, mixed, or purely beneficial, which I will not get into here), but maybe removing precipitates may be a hidden benefit of a "spring cleaning". For example, Marian Sterian (who makes the Masterline ferts and grows some pretty nice plants) advises a cleaning and reset of the substrate every 3-4 months (I believe). However I cant say exactly why he does this as I do not know.

Im pretty far off topic now to the original frogbit deficiency, and most dont keep their frogbit rooted into the substrate as far as I know, so maybe we should continue this in a new thread? That way others may also find the discussion more easily, if it has a descriptive title instead of ending up buried in another topic 😃
 
"With time, the accumulated precipitates begin to more strongly influence the plant element nutrition than that being applied by the nutrient solution for some elements."
That's a really interesting quote. Thanks for sharing that from the book @Hufsa
For example, Marian Sterian (who makes the Masterline ferts and grows some pretty nice plants) advises a cleaning and reset of the substrate every 3-4 months (I believe). However I cant say exactly why he does this as I do not know.
This is also interesting to me. I always assumed the substrate cleaning was for detritus as well, I wonder if precipitates have any relevance here.
Im pretty far off topic now to the original frogbit deficiency, and most dont keep their frogbit rooted into the substrate as far as I know, so maybe we should continue this in a new thread?
Yes, good point. My apologies OP - didn't mean to thread-jack :lol:
 
@Hanuman and @Zeus. Have worked this out for me before so sure it's in the IFC calculator
I’ve just found it on the IFC calculator. Thanks for the nudge.
Id be happy to help you out with the IFC if you want @hypnogogia :thumbup:
Thank you that’s very kind of you. Now that I’ve found it on the IFC calculator I‘m going to try that.

It’s suggesting 1.48g of 13% EDTA Mn in a 500ml stock solution to achieve 0.25ppm in a 270 litre system, dosing 25ml per day, 7 days per week. Does that seem right?
 
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