Dilute solution credibility

[Happi]

Thats a point, I’d never considered the fact that their dosing may be based around emersed growth but it makes sense.

It stands to reason then, that if nutrient uptake and thus requirements of plants are calculated based on plants that have arguably higher PAR and access to atmospheric levels of co2, that there could be more margin for error built in to submersed dosing than we give credit for.

I agree that individual tank requirements vary wildly but these products must cater to the vast majority otherwise people would stop using their products with repeated failures.

when i earlier referred to "Tropica has it right" I was referring to that their fertilizer is solely primarily is designed for aquatic plant in mind, including their Fertilizer ratio, type of chemicals being used, Chelate etc. if you look at their ratio, your first impression would be that i will be low on Potassium and several other Micros, apparently Tropica been growing all kinds of plants under such ratios for very long time. Tropica doesn't recommend to start adding random things in the tank if one want to increase little bit more Potassium for example, instead increasing the Dose of Tropica is recommended, all the ratio stays the same. sometime they recommend Combining both Products Tropica Nutrition Premium and Tropica Nutrition Specialized.

I do see some people adding additional things like PO4, K etc. but this is not necessary. in some cases it would make sense to do things like these when the water parameters interfere with Nutrients at much higher rate. Tropica is stabilized with very good Chelate DTPA/HEEDTA and it should be very stable in wide range of waters, I doubt anyone is growing plants in very high PH to begin with.

 

[Soilwork]

when i earlier referred to "Tropica has it right" I was referring to that their fertilizer is solely primarily is designed for aquatic plant in mind, including their Fertilizer ratio, type of chemicals being used, Chelate etc. if you look at their ratio, your first impression would be that i will be low on Potassium and several other Micros, apparently Tropica been growing all kinds of plants under such ratios for very long time. Tropica doesn't recommend to start adding random things in the tank if one want to increase little bit more Potassium for example, instead increasing the Dose of Tropica is recommended, all the ratio stays the same. sometime they recommend Combining both Products Tropica Nutrition Premium and Tropica Nutrition Specialized.

I do see some people adding additional things like PO4, K etc. but this is not necessary. in some cases it would make sense to do things like these when the water parameters interfere with Nutrients at much higher rate. Tropica is stabilized with very good Chelate DTPA/HEEDTA and it should be very stable in wide range of waters, I doubt anyone is growing plants in very high PH to begin with.

Thanks that makes a lot of sense. They have been around a very long time.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Just want the experienced hobbyist consensus is now that we have developed away from AIO solutions by big companies.

For me it is <"mainly just cost">.

Last one, <"as times are tough">, just a quick working of cost, based upon the figures above (adding 20 ppm NO3 a week) and the cost of the fertiliser (I'll go with the £13 I paid earlier in the year for a kilo (1000 g) of fertiliser).

@kellyboy47 would need to add 5.4g of fertiliser a week (20 ppm NO3 as 2 * 10 ppm doses). I'll round that up to 6g to take into account spillage etc.

So 1000 / 6 = 167, so that is enough fertiliser for 167 weeks (or 3.2) years <"at a cost of ~8p a week">.

£13 / 167 = 7.8 p.

There is nothing at all intrinsically wrong with "Tropica Specialised" or "TNC complete", but I would really have to grit my teeth before I bought "Tropica Specialised", when I have <"Solufeed"> etc to hand and I know that <"an ion is an ion is an ion">.

If I just kept a few relatively small volume planted tanks, and didn't have <"a garden">, <"house plants"> etc., then an AIO would make more sense.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

The importance of the cost factor depends on tank size and dosing regime.... One of my 150L low-tech tanks runs on Tropica Specialized as the main source of N and traces - Currently I am dosing 12 ml every 11'ish days (after my 35% WC). targeting 1 ppm of N (yes, quite lean...). At that rate my 750 ml bottle will last almost two years .... I think I paid $40 / 32 GBP for the bottle. At some point way back I used Tropica in both my tanks targeting higher N... that made me eventually reconsider and mix my own fertilizer for both tanks until I went back to Tropica for my lean dosing experiment... The convenience of an all-in-one fertilizer such as Tropica Specialized - especially for beginners and hobbyists that do not want to get involved in the mixology business - should not be underestimated.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Ria95]

My question really is the credibility of the dosing guides and whether we agree that they are based on some kind of applied science that has some merit. Of course, plants all want the same nutrients but there are other factors that will dictate which plants do better.

I’m not suggesting that they are smarter. But rather that they are still credible and relevant in the hobby.

If we look at the dosing guide for tropica "6ml /50L weekly" according to their website or 10ml/100L weekly according to their bottle. Trust the dosing guide, one of them, you choose the science that fits. But go to Tropica Inspiration page and have a look at what those tanks are dosed at. For example this 75 L tank done by Farmer and Jutjajevs receives 50 ml Premium + 25 ml Specialized weekly. The plants’ difficulty and abundance is nothing to write home about and it’s not the only tank that vastly ignores tropica dosing guide. The advantage is that the tanks were sponsored and got all the fertilizer for free... .so when cost was not an issue that was the preferred dose. I would also say those tanks are unfortunately far from common. We can only imagine the reaction a common aquarium keeper would have after their nitrates suddenly increased by 20ppm from using that new fertilizer for just week. So in my view, it’s the best guess at what the most common customer would want (often motivated by marketing alone ) and what are they missing in their aquariums that drives the dosing guides rather than plant science.

To be clear, I don’t doubt that the scientists at Tropica and other companies know a lot. Many companies have trials that will never see the light of day, but are used to give them a competitive edge. Companies exist for and because they make money. Forces other than science are much stronger in creating products and their marketing.

 

[Zeus.]

ADA make ADA aquasoil, which is packed with nutrients. Their fert range to be used with their AS is basically water with very little nutrients. The price per nutrients is massive, which I worked out when doing the IFC with @Hanuman, the best way to reduce your cost is to make your own ferts, especially with tanks around 100 litres or more. Even low big low tech tanks it worth taking the DIY route IMO

 

[Zeus.]

Heres the back end spreadsheet within the IFC calculator (only myself and @Hanuman have access as its a lot of data)

So ADA Green Bright 'N' cost about £62.00 per Litre a Clone of it cost £0.20 per litre - if only the plants knew they was 'worth it' to use an advertising phase that folk pay for big time thinking there getting something extra special.

 

[Tim Harrison]

The Emperor's new clothes perhaps

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So in my view, it’s the best guess at what the most common customer would want (often motivated by marketing alone ) and what are they missing in their aquariums that drives the dosing guides rather than plant science...............Forces other than science are much stronger in creating products and their marketing.

I'm sure you are right.

So ADA Green Bright 'N' cost about £62.00 per Litre a Clone of it cost £0.20 per litre - if only the plants knew they was 'worth it' to use an advertising phase that folk pay for big time thinking there getting something extra special.

ADA make ADA aquasoil, which is packed with nutrients. Their fert range to be used with their AS is basically water with very little nutrients.

I'm also sure that is the model for a lot of companies, sell <"a system">, get brand loyalty and then use social media etc to obscure the truth.

We just have to carry on calling out false advertising for what it is. We might not agree with all the content of the "Aquarium Science" website, but <"I certainly admire the author"> for his <"Mick Lynchesque"> dealing with Seachem, the Pondguru etc. (below).

......... “Expert recommendations” and “science” do not go hand in hand due to the profit motive. In aquarium products a marketing department of a company can freely “false advertise” as much as they want, it is perfectly legal. Marketing departments are extremely effective at writing very convincing science fiction, shooting down the cheap alternative and promoting the very expensive alternative. They are also very good at making charlatan YouTube videos.......

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

I hate to be the devils advocate, but without what looks to us as a hefty profit margin no company would be in the business of making and selling aquarium fertilizers. While the cost of raw material going into these products is low, the cost of R&D, production, distribution, marketing, retail presence and retail markup is not. It's easy to make a calculation that shows that these products are grossly overpriced without factoring in all the steps that goes into putting these products on brick and mortar or virtual store shelves. What I do wish though, a long the lines of what Darrel says above, is that these companies would be a bit more honest about what they are selling.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Tim Harrison]

So ADA Green Bright 'N' cost about £62.00 per Litre a Clone of it cost £0.20 per litre

What's the markup on that?

 

[MichaelJ]

What's the markup on that?

The markup is a staggering 30900% (30900 / 100 x 0.2 + 0.2 == 62.00) If the clone is in fact 0.2 per liter. Definitely an outlier

Cheers,
Michael

 

[KirstyF]

Wow!!
So if you are paying £62 per litre for £0.20 worth of active ingredient, I think that means the active ingredients would be the equivalent of 0.0032% of the total, or 3.2ml worth.
Making that £19.38 per ml or £969 for 50ml

This is even more than the completely insane £820 you would pay for this face cream.


(Although that’s just for a re-fill. It’s a cool £1,120 if you want the pot 😉)

Or alternatively you could buy 1,026 cans of Stella Artois….which is reassuringly expensive. 😂

DIY would be £2.86, I think, which might cover some Vaseline of 3 cans of a 4pack. 😊

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I hate to be the devils advocate, but without what looks to us as a hefty profit margin no company would be in the business of making and selling aquarium fertilizers.

I'd guess that neither fertilisers, or substrates, are actually much of a money maker for the companies that sell them.

cheers Darrel

 

[Zeus.]

You can reduce the cost of a ADA Green Bright 'N' clone even more by using urea prills as well

Plus you will be cutting down your carbon footprint as well as shipping all that water from where ever its made etc.
Yes, firms need to make as much money as possible - why not, so they try to baffle you with science or stun you with results then stick a high price on it, esp when they develop a 'so called' new system. Most are just reinventing the wheel. The lowest "trusted' recommendation for a product comes from the sales team IMO and very few salespersons actual know they stuff as well.
Bought a new LCD some years back the TV price was good, sales team gave me some BS as they was after nearly £100 for gold plated HDMI cable- which would get the best picture , which I get myself elsewhere for about a £5.
I was after a switch for an X-ray machine which had gone faulty the manufactures was after £50 plus, took a pic of numbers on back of switch and got one from RS components for less than £2, well actual bought a few as had three machines

 

[Tim Harrison]

I think ADA have got the cost of R&D covered.

 

[MichaelJ]

nearly £100 for gold plated HDMI cable- which would get the best picture

Did not know ADA was selling HDMI cables .... joking aside, I remember those cables...

Absolutely outrageous. I don’t think any other business can boast that, besides manufacturers of face cream perhaps. You have to admire the sheer audacity. I think the margin takes good care of R&D etc.. it’s simply astonishing just how naive and/or masochistic consumers can be.

I agree. It's completely insane. Yes, the cosmetic industry easily comes to mind as a comparison. I still think ADA is somewhat of an outlier though.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Tim Harrison]

Clearly ADA is not an outlier though @MichaelJ, you just have to look at @Zeus. ’s. chart above to realise that. They’re all at it, just varying degrees of absurdity.

 

[Hanuman]

While the cost of raw material going into these products is low, the cost of R&D, production, distribution, marketing, retail presence and retail markup is not. It's easy to make a calculation that shows that these products are grossly overpriced without factoring in all the steps that goes into putting these products on brick and mortar or virtual store shelves.

Yeah I am pretty confident they are still making a heafty profit marging on these.

 

[MichaelJ]

Clearly ADA is not an outlier though @MichaelJ, you just have to look at @Zeus. ’s. chart above to realise that. They’re all at it.

Yes, they are all at it being for-profit companies catering to a small market, but ADA certainly stands out (in a bad way) in terms of cost per liter and cost per important ingredients - say cost per ppm of NO3, cost per ppm of Fe and cost per week.

Cheers,
Michael