Diy spray bar! I need help!

[MikeJojo]

Edit: Just to add, I used the wood drill bits, the ones with a sharp point. Not sure what type you're using.

I used the same. Even when originally I meant to use 4mm drill and calculated all I noticed it wobbling in drill, so recalculated all to use 3.5mm which was perfectly spinning.

I first draw a line and then drill the holes. Fix the spraybar between two pieces of wood and slide them as one piece. This way the position won't change.... Just a suggestion.

Jordi

It's good idea. I try to do something like that.

Edit: Jordi - I was just reading another forum regarding that and Got an Idea similar to yours!

I received acrylic tube taped to long board kind of like plaster board. I will tape it to it again in few places and just move the board in vice. Tube will definitely stay in position! Yeahhh... Thanks Jordi

 

[MikeJojo]

Hi there again. I've been thinking about it got some science to work for me. Fingers crossed that I've found out the cause of all my headache. Doing all my spray bars I used to drill 3.5mm or 4mm holes.

Now if you imagine how water escapes that little holes and take let's say 10mm hole then definately water will escape angled/every direction in fact. Why? Because there is not much acrylic tube thickness to guide stream of water straight out. If tube was 5mm thick then you can imagine water enters the hole and as it enters it bounce back 5mm wall and is guided straight out.

Now, having acrylic tube 2mm thick only, the only way to make sure water is escaping hole right is to make holes small enough so the ratio between thickness and hole size if right.

Other words, if you take 1cm piece of tube and put shower hose into it running water then water will go any direction basically. If you would do that with 5cm piece of tube it won't happen. 5cm tube is long enough to guide water straight out.

It is just my theory but i will try it and definitely let you know if it works soon

What do you think? Did you get what I'm trying to describe here? I tend to complicate things and my english is not good enough to describe it better but let's see.

 

[NC10]

First off, not sure where you're from, but your English is spot on. How you've managed to understand and reply to any of my posts is beyond me

I think you're heading in the wrong direction though, no pun intended. The thickness of the tube could be 1mm or 50mm, if the holes are not straight it will come out in whichever direction the hole is heading.

There is no problem in drilling 10mm holes, the water should still come out straight if it's done right. It's the water pressure keeping it coming out straight, or whatever direction the hole has been drilled in. If you think about not using a spraybar and just using the actual tube from your filter, 16mm or whatever, it still comes out straight doesn't it. It doesn't just exit randomly at the end, it follows the route it's being told to.

As long as you stick to the same area in/out you could have 3x 10mm holes, 50x 1mm holes, or 20x 2mm holes for example. They would all come out straight if they matched the area and were drilled straight. Obviously they'd differ in speed/velocity, but the same amount of water would be coming from each hole, straight.

I'm also struggling to get across what I mean, I hope you understand my English lol

What size is your pipe and what type of flow do you want? I'll work a few options out tomorrow if you like, it's down to you to drill them straight though

 

[MikeJojo]

It's the water pressure keeping it coming out straight,

Forgot about that and yes I would agree it does matter.

Now, here is video of my old spray bar where I taped all previously drilled holes and drilled new test ones with 2mm, 2.5mm and 3.5mm. Please see results and share your thoughts. See video's description.



Mike

 

[NC10]

My thoughts

If you really want to do an experiment to test how different sized holes act differently, you need to have all the holes of equal size on individual spray bars with the same space between them, making sure the same area is exiting. Surely adding different sized holes with different spacing between them will only lead to trouble. Did you calculate the area in vs out taking into account all the holes of different sizes? What's the outlet size of the shower as well, can't you test it on the actual pump?

In the first part of the bar with the smaller holes which are coming out straight, you've only put 2 in the same gap as you've put 3 of the larger holes in. Water will attract attract to water, so by leaving even less gap by fitting more in and increasing the size, the spray from the larger holes is going to start interfering with each other.

The last 3 look like they're coming out straight, which I'm guessing are the biggest holes which would rule your thinking out, it's only when they get higher up that they start messing up. The other 2 sets to the left look like they're not even coming out straight, so would lead back to drilling the holes straight in the first place. Going by the direction they're coming out, I'm guessing you're right handed anyway

I think you're starting to really over think it though. Once that (not that one obviously) is in the tank, it will give you a nice uniform flow. The larger hole theory doesn't work though, I think it's all about the straightness of the hole in your case.

 

[MikeJojo]

I've drilled holes randomly and haven't calculated area in/out.

The last 3 look like they're coming out straight, which I'm guessing are the biggest holes

No, they are 2mm again. I put a note of all holes in description of video. You can see it if opened in youtube.

Have a look at video and description again and you'll see that basically the bigger hole the more skewed. All holes were drilled in drill stand, and tube fixed in vice.

I'll drill another couple of 3.5mm to the left and then couple of 2mm again left to them, so there will be some 2's, 3.5's and 2's again. That will rule out position of hole in tube causing different stream, I suppose

Anyway, I will probably go for 2mm holes what gives me one hole every 1cm and makes 62'ish holes. Will flow be still good having hose outflow area = sum of all holes area, as a obvious rule?

Mike

 

[NC10]

I viewed it on YouTube but can't see a description (can you copy and paste it here)

If they're 2mm at the end then, it shows how the pressure is dropping off, making them look "fatter" for want of a better word.

Adding more random holes to that bar is just going to affect how you'll view the results and you still won't be able to come to a conclusion. You could always tape up your other 3 test bars and try the holes the same size on each one if you really want to get to the bottom of it. As long as the the area and holes are worked out correct they should all come straight though.

I'm guessing you're on 16mm ID then. 201.06 area. If you want to run slightly below area like you've mentioned before, it should be fine. You could go up to a max 64 holes and still be within area.

 

[NC10]

Can't edit my post:

Anyway, I will probably go for 2mm holes what gives me one hole every 1cm and makes 62'ish holes. Will flow be still good having hose outflow area = sum of all holes area, as a obvious rule?

Mike

60+ holes seems a lot to me after thinking about it, but it depends what type of flow you want. I can't remember exactly how many holes I have without checking, but it's around 20 I think in a 4ft long spraybar and for me it's too many. It's very gentle, not as aggressive as I was looking for anyway. If I did it again I'd have gone for a lot less. Going by this, I can only guess that 60+ holes would be nothing more than a dribble. Mines with 2000lph though, not sure what lph you're going to be kicking out of yours.

All you have to work with is the flow from the filter/pump anyway, how you decide to share this between each hole is up to you. More holes equals less flow from each, more gentle. Less holes equals more flow from each, more aggressive.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Mike,
It's probably a good idea to make sample bars using PVC first since it easier and cheaper to work with. Internal burrs can also affect the exit angles so if there is a way to clean the up via reaming the tube with sandpaper or stiff brush to catch the pieces along the length then try that. Of the two groups of holes in the video the group on the right side look the worst but even the brand name bars spit out the odd jet at an odd angle, especially when the tube gets dirty so it's not worth worrying too much about it. As long as the jets hit the front glass then that will do. Fill the tank and place tiny pieces of paper or bits of flake food and see what the general path is. The most important motion is that the flow reaches the front glass and that it is deflected downwards. If you can achieve that then mission accomplished.

Cheers,

 

[MikeJojo]

Thanks ceg.


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[MikeJojo]

Ceg, one question.

I believe it was you saying that when calculating area of all holes for spray bar it's good to go for about 80% of hose area. Do you reckon stating it somewhere?

I can't find that post. Forgive me if it wasn't you.


Mike


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[parotet]

Hi Mike,
It's probably a good idea to make sample bars using PVC first since it easier and cheaper to work with. Internal burrs can also affect the exit angles so if there is a way to clean the up via reaming the tube with sandpaper or stiff brush to catch the pieces along the length then try that. Of the two groups of holes in the video the group on the right side look the worst but even the brand name bars spit out the odd jet at an odd angle, especially when the tube gets dirty so it's not worth worrying too much about it. As long as the jets hit the front glass then that will do. Fill the tank and place tiny pieces of paper or bits of flake food and see what the general path is. The most important motion is that the flow reaches the front glass and that it is deflected downwards. If you can achieve that then mission accomplished.

Cheers,

Hey Clive, you have a sun above your tank. Looking at the right side of the light I would say that there are at least 10x T5 tubes
Doesn't look like the superlong tank we've seen other times. New setup?

Jordi

 

[Edvet]

Doesn't look like the superlong tank we've seen other times. New setup

He's not allowed to give any information, he's working for NASA creating habitable Mars housing.........

 

[parotet]

Bad news, I was there last week and ADA has opened a new shop...

 

[ceg4048]

I believe it was you saying that when calculating area of all holes for spray bar it's good to go for about 80% of hose area. Do you reckon stating it somewhere?

Hi Mike,
No I wouldn't have said that. Any reduction of the original cross sectional area of the filter outlet tubing causes a reduction in flow. What I would have said was that the sum of the total area of the holes should equal the cross sectional are of the filter outlet tube.

Hey Clive, you have a sun above your tank. Looking at the right side of the light I would say that there are at least 10x T5 tubes
Doesn't look like the superlong tank we've seen other times. New setup?

No it's the same 1/2 kilowatt T5 PC, just a different angle. That was during my Actinic phase...

Cheers,

 

[MikeJojo]

Clive, I'm sorry for that. It must have been another reputable user either here or on another forum. I'll try to dig it out but anyway thanks you cleared this out.


Mike


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[MikeJojo]

I viewed it on YouTube but can't see a description (can you copy and paste it here)

Tried to find out if size of the hole matters in angled streams. Holes from the left are as follow:

- 9 of 2mm diameter
- 4 of 3.5mm diameter
- 1 of 2.5mm diameter
- 4 of 2mm diameter

Adding more random holes to that bar is just going to affect how you'll view the results and you still won't be able to come to a conclusion. You could always tape up your other 3 test bars and try the holes the same size on each one if you really want to get to the bottom of it. As long as the the area and holes are worked out correct they should all come straight though.

Here are two more videos. First is showing spraybar until now. It has 3.5mm holes drilled. Second one is with 2mm hols (56 LOL). I used same tools on both of them and you can see how streams are coming out differently.

First video



Second video

I'm guessing you're on 16mm ID then. 201.06 area. If you want to run slightly below area like you've mentioned before, it should be fine. You could go up to a max 64 holes and still be within area.

I'm on APS 1400 15mm ID. Made 56 holes

More holes equals less flow from each, more gentle. Less holes equals more flow from each, more aggressive.

It's really gentle but I'll have a look tomorrow how co2 bubbles travel around.

Mike

 

[MikeJojo]

Hi guys

Little update. I re-drilled my old spray bar.

I taped old holes and drilled new ones using 4mm drill bit. Velocity is much better of course and all streams are coming out straight. How I've done it?

I took piece of acrylic tube and drilled test hole straight down. Then tested how far stream goes sideway and drilled second hole but at the angle to balance angled stream.

Now I have spray bar with 14 holes of 4mm instead of over 50 holes of 2mm.

And what's most important I know how to make streams jetting straight out when drilling straight holes doesn't work for me

Mike




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[MikeJojo]

I can't remember exactly how many holes I have without checking, but it's around 20 I think in a 4ft long spraybar and for me it's too many. It's very gentle, not as aggressive as I was looking for anyway.

Do you remember what is size of holes in your spraybar? If not, what's your hose ID and spraybar OD/ID?

Mike

 

[Gilles]

What I would have said was that the sum of the total area of the holes should equal the cross sectional are of the filter outlet tube.

Ok, let me get this straight for a non native English speaker.

I have a Fluval FX6, which has 25mm hose.
To calculate the area of a circle, i have to multiply the square of the radius by Pi (which comes down in Excel to the following formula if i am correct) which returns ~490.
"=Pi()*(25/2)^2)"

Then i have the following information;
Nr of Holes (A)
Diameter (B)
Calculated Surface (C)

By guessing, i came to the following numbers:
A = 70
B = 3
C = ~494

which means i have to drill 70 holes of 3mm diameter to get approx. the same amount of surface, correct?
And i can adjust this to 4mm, 5mm even as long as i get thesame surface area i would have thesame amount of flow.. ?