Do Healthy Plants Release Organics?

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by jaypeecee, 28 Nov 2019.

  1. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    Hi @Thumper

    Thanks for mentioning that. Are you using the Green Aqua gizmo on the Eheim skim350?

    JPC
     
  2. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    Yes. Without a sponge in the skimmer on half power. No problems.
     
  3. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    Hi @Thumper

    Without a sponge!! So, what is removing the scum/film from the surface?

    JPC
     
  4. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    There is no scum ;) I just use the skimmer to reach CO2 levels faster and have more stable O2.
     
  5. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    :confused:o_O

    JPC
     
  6. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

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    ;)
     
  7. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    Hi @Zeus.

    Perhaps I should have explained. I can see why a suitably-positioned surface skimmer would help with CO2 distribution and O2 exchange. But the essence of the thread is all about removing surface film/scum caused by dissolved organics. Hence, the confusion.

    BTW, do I detect a video there from Dennis Wong?

    JPC
     
  8. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

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    Better O2 levels should 'I think' help reduce the DOC load of the tank as better O2 to the filter/substrate will result in the aerobic bacteria working better ! I'm sure @dw1305 Will confirm/dismiss this ;)

    Yep D Wong :thumbup:
     
  9. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    Yes, but in a healthy tank there is no surface scum, because it can get removed by bacteria before it starts to appear.
     
  10. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

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    Hi all,
    Yes, I think so. It is the <"activated sludge scenario">, just with higher quality water initially.

    cheers Darrel
     
  11. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    Hi @Thumper

    I guess we need to start by looking at what you mean by "a healthy tank". Lots of people, including myself, would consider that we have 'healthy' tanks. But we may still get a surface scum or oily film because these naturally develop in an enclosed system and in natural waters. Please take a look at the following:

    https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-ferrous-gluconate-cause-a-water-surface-film.58550/

    In my tanks, I have often measured the oxygen level and they consistently measure 8ppm - this would suggest that oxygenation is not an issue. So, if surface scum is being "removed by bacteria before it starts to appear", does that mean that I don't have the 'right' bacteria in my tank? If that's the case, I want some!

    JPC
     
  12. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    Thats exactly what i'm talking about.
    A healty tank has (IMO) the right and enough bacterias. How you get them? Stable and smooth first 2-3 month with low - medium light, so that there wont be huge algae or nutritien imbalances (BGA, green glass/rocks).
    The next thing i have a huge focus on is filter maintenance. I gently wash off debris from my filter media every 4 weeks. This results in low DOC and enough O2 throughout the filter.

    As for bacterias, in our german forum is a huge discussion about the microflora. Right now we have no results, as we cant prove anything but the best results are in those tanks where we have low DOC, a smooth first phase and stable water parameters.
    A friend is currently testing 2 things: 1) compost brew every other day. 2) Mykorrhiza fungi. I can keep you posted.
     
  13. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    Hi @Thumper

    Thank you for your reply. Of particular interest is your German forum microflora discussion. Unfortunately, I am not conversant with the German language so your translation will be very welcome. I assume that your microflora discussion also includes Archaea. Please explain what is meant by "compost brew every other day". Others may know what this means but, for my benefit, what is compost brew? I do have limited knowledge of mycorrhizal fungus as I use it in my garden. Finally, how do you measure/monitor DOC?

    Please keep us posted.

    JPC
     
  14. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    Take 1 spoon of healthy compost earth and dissolve it in 500ml water. if you want, you can filter it through a coffee filter. This water should now be enriched with many many bacterias and bacteria food.

    We're pretty unexperienced too. Time will show if it works.

    Well, the only way to measure it is with a fine (but not to fine) membrane. We don't measure it, but tests showed, that with stable O2 levels mulm will eventually be a stable amount.
    In many tanks without any filtration and just a circulation pump, sand substrate, many plants and a stable O2 level there is also a stable mulm amount - not getting more/less.
     
  15. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

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    Hi all,
    I'm interested in how this works. I can see a rationale for it. My suspicion would be that it is going to offer some of the same advantages as <"structural leaf litter">.

    These are the processes that <"Stephan Tanner"> talks about in <"Aquarium Biofiltration">.
    I think you are probably much more likely to get informed debate on German fish keeping forums. It is back to the <"shades of grey"> world, in the English speaking world I don't think we are very good at visualising complex interactions, we like "linear" and "black and white" answers and I think we are much more likely to resort to a chemical or technological "solutions".
    I also think an <"amount of mulm"> may offer advantages.
    This is as the result of the <"complete oxidation process">.

    cheers Darrel
     
  16. jaypeecee

    jaypeecee Member

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    Hi @Thumper

    Referring to your first sentence above, I guess that would be a membrane allowing substances from 0.22 micrometres to 0.7 micrometres to pass through it?

    Your last sentence is a very significant observation, isn't it? That's quite a discovery. Of course, manufacturers of canister filters, for example, will probably challenge this. I don't suppose it's what they'd want to hear.

    JPC
     
  17. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    Its widely accepted in germany since a decade for hobbyists. For reference check this post. He only uses ceramic rings and observes that the mulm-spots in the filter move from time to time and also sometimes fill find their way back into the tank. Occassionally he'll vacuum his gravel, as he has fish in the tank. But for tank without any stock there wont be more/less mulm - everything gets recycled.

    Sure, manufactureres want to sell everything. I mean, Seachem sells Matrix for $$$$ while its just pumice stone - and even ADA Bio Rio (which is also pumice) is cheaper than Matrix. But if i go to your local DIY store you get 20L pumice stone 8-16mm for ~10-15€. Seachem Matrix 20L is 199€.

    Back to the topic: I only use a filled filter (with pumice) to maintain enough bacteria. As i remove the mulm in the filter every month i get my stable portion of mulm in my tank. And btw, my filter medium is never really dirty. More like dusty.
     
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  18. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

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    Cut though the sales BS and get the same product for peanuts :thumbup: We are all fans of getting passed the BS
     
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  19. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

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    Hi all,
    Yes, its just a <"gas permeable membrane">.I think the pore size is a bit smaller, but I can't remember exactly how small.

    You <"calibrate the DO meter"> in 100% water vapour saturated air and the meter has automatic temperature and atmospheric pressure compensation.

    Better meters offer you a choice of water-saturated air or a Winkler titration calibration and also have a conductivity meter to allow manual compensation for increased conductivity. They are <"quite easy bits of kit to use">.

    The issue is just the cost of the probe/meter. You can also get <"optical meters">. They are really good, but a bit more expensive again.
    That <"is the truth">.

    We have a few pumice threads. These are <"Filter media">, <"...Renew"> & <"Hobby laterite">.

    cheers Darrel
     
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  20. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member

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    Do healthy plants leak organics?

    Just an observation, Otos et al are often very busy on plant leaves that are strong, healthy and have no obvious algae. Are they grazing on films formed on these leaves by lipids and other complexes and does the removal of such films helps prevent algae colonising such surfaces. Or perhaps colonising micro flora/fauna feed on these films and their presence becomes a stepping stone for algae and their removal makes it harder for algae to become established. A series of micro successions leading to algae as the climax coloniser.

    Having finally grasped the nettle and removed several large Anubias barteri var barteri and replanting with stem plants my Otos and similar have become very interested in the growing leaves, even the corys have been busy 'dusting' these leaves. Previously the corys were only interested in the undersides of cryp leaves for spawning sites. Anubias have thick glossy leaves and would perhaps be less leaky and of less interest to my little guys.

    Just some thoughts on a wet rainy day.
     
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