Does this look like ich?

[Dr. White]

Hi all.

Upsetting turn of events. My school of cardinals and three ottos were doing so well, and I decided to add 4 more cardinals and 3 more ottos. I went against all good advice - including that which I would have given - and didn't thoroughly examine the fish shops tanks before asking for them. I first noticed the new cardinals having laboured respiration when they went in. Not a big concern then, they were new. But they remained washed out and behaving abnormally for about three days before I noticed white spots on a couple of them. Only about 3 or 4 spots each. I immediately purchased some eSHa Exit and began the first dose straight away. It recommends a large dose, then two half doses on subsequent days. I did that and the problem was only got worse, with it spreading to the original cardinals and the ottos. The meds suggest for stubborn cases, keep dosing for another 3 days. I have done that now, and have not seen any improvement. Today I sadly lost two of my original cardinals, neither of whom actually had any white spots visible on their bodies. I attach a photo of the one that died today.

I am now wondering if it really was ich, or perhaps something like epistylus?

 

[Bradders]

Hello,

So, so sorry to hear this.

Are those "white spots" flat against the body, or do they protrude somewhat?

 

[Dr. White]

Hello,

So, so sorry to hear this.

Are those "white spots" flat against the body, or do they protrude somewhat?

Thank you, BRJP1. They look to be raised, like pimples. But hard to really tell with my eyesight. It is a shame that one of the deceased didn't have them. Must have been about the only two unaffected with that symptom. I'd have been able to get it under magnification.

 

[Tim Harrison]

I would guess ich.. This has always proven effective treatment.

eSHa EXIT

Anti whitespot treatment eSHa EXIT treats all 'Spot' (Ich or Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) causing parasitic species. Symptoms: white spots on the body and fins, rubbing and scratching again

www.eshalabs.eu

But it’s also important to find out why your fish succumbed to disease otherwise it will probably happen again.

 

[Dr. White]

The cardinals are still eating well. The poor ottos aren't, they look far from well and I'd not be surprised if I lose them soon.

 

[Bradders]

Hmmm. Are we confident this is ich?

It’s really hard to see from the images. But it looks like they are unevenly distributed patches and non uniform in size. The fact that it has killed fish in a very short space of time, it does not sound like ich to me. Also, the (ich?) treatment applied so far seems to have had no positive impact.

@Dr. White - what is your current tank temperature? Also, can you take a picture of the tank from the front and also describe how much aeration you have going on?

 

[Dr. White]

I would guess a ich.. This has always proven effective treatment.

eSHa EXIT

Anti whitespot treatment eSHa EXIT treats all 'Spot' (Ich or Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) causing parasitic species. Symptoms: white spots on the body and fins, rubbing and scratching again

www.eshalabs.eu

But it’s also important to find out why your fish succumbed to disease otherwise it will probably happen again.

That's what I've been using but it seems not to have proven effective yet, as I mention. The water quality was tip-top and they were doing swimmingly until I added the newcomers. The only thing I can think of is that the temperature dropped recently, for I imagine a day or two, while my thermofilter wasn't outputting well and the room got cold. I came back in and found it around 17 when it is usually about 23. That may have made them more sensitive to the newcomers parasites. But, they may well have picked them up anyway.

 

[Tim Harrison]

If in doubt there is also the option to combine eSHa Exit with eSHa 2000. Combined its a broad spectrum treatment and well tolerated by most aquatic organisms including shrimp and snails.

@Dr. White a drastic drop in temp and new introductions will most likely have been the trigger. I hope you’ve managed to increase the temp and stabilise it. Daily water changes would also be a good idea.

Further, it’s easy to under dose if you don’t take in to account the volume of any external filters. And render the treatment ineffective if absorbent media such as activated charcoal and purigen are not removed.

 

[Dr. White]

It is currently 24, but as I just said to Tim just now, the temp did drop following the intro of the new fish to around 17 for maybe a day or two.

Photos of the aquarium. The ugly surface skimmer I've only had for a few days. I was going to site it behind the scape, but I think I'll ditch it for an Oase one soon. It was cheap a bit too big and unsightly but to be f air is doing a grand job right now with the oil issue I was having, and must be helping no end boost the dissolved oxygen levels. Its outlet is catching the flow from the lily pipe, and the lily pipe is rippling the water very well - as I have tried to capture in the photos.

 

[fredi]

Yes needs to check temperature and temperature stability

Hmmm. Are we confident this is ich?

It’s really hard to see from the images. But it looks like they are unevenly distributed patches and non uniform in size. The fact that it has killed fish in a very short space of time, it does not sound like ich to me. Also, the (ich?) treatment applied so far seems to have had no positive impact.

@Dr. White - what is your current tank temperature? Also, can you take a picture of the tank from the front and also describe how much aeration you have going on?

 

[Bradders]

If in doubt there is also the option to combine eSHa Exit with eSHa 2000. Combined its a broad spectrum treatment and well tolerated by most aquatic organisms including shrimp and snails.

Dr White had already said he had been using the treatment, which was unsuccessful. Some fish have died without symptoms of ich, which rarely kills in a few days within a mature aquarium. Not sure what I said was wrong when looking at what was already posted and being used as treatment. But, OK.

@Dr. White a drastic drop in temp and new introductions will most likely have been the trigger. I hope you’ve managed to increase the temp and stabilise it. Daily water changes would also be a good idea.

Agree with significant water changes, increasing aeration to the maximum and keeping temperature in check. Personally, I would move down to 23 to "hedge your bets", as raising the temperature will only help epistylis thrive if it is that.

 

[Conort2]

Looks like ich to me. Bump up the aeration and get some esha exit. Keeping cardinals for over a day at 17 degrees would have been the issue I think.

 

[Bradders]

Also, if you can of course, increase the biofiltration as much as possible. (I know this is ridiculous to suggest as no one has a cycled filter on hand, but if it can be increased ......)

 

[Tim Harrison]

Dr White had already said he had been using the treatment, which was unsuccessful. Some fish have died without symptoms of ich, which rarely kills in a few days within a mature aquarium. Not sure what I said was wrong when looking at what was already posted and being used as treatment

For sure, but it’s often a combination of factors working in synergy that can prove fatal. For instance disease and a significant and protracted drop in temp.

 

[Dr. White]

I was really looking for an answer as to the disease, but good to hear that increased aeration and water changes are recommended - I did that just today. The addition of the skimmer, cutting out the crap on the surface and increasing aeration and water movement throughout the tank will certainly help.

What is confusing to me, is that it looks so much like ich, as some have pointed out and my past experience would also say was. But as BRJP1 points out and which confused me is that ich shouldn't kill quickly like that and it has been unresponsive to a week of eSHa EXIT, a considered good treatment for white spot.

I suppose the only real way to resolve it is catch one out, take a scrape and put it under a microscope. That's all a lot harder to arrange than ask a forum!

 

[Dr. White]

Also, if you can of course, increase the biofiltration as much as possible. (I know this is ridiculous to suggest as no one has a cycled filter on hand, but if it can be increased ......)

I can't do that in a way, but the addition of that skimmer has massively increased flow around the aquarium, the wood, plants, walls and especially the substrate. All those surfaces will be covered in nitrifying bacteria, so the increased flow will increase the in-tank biofiltration a bit. Having said that, ammonia has never been an issue in this tank. That blahblahblahblah is easier to get under control than parasites bought in by an idiot keeper not paying attention when buying new stock. Or, having quarantine facilities!

 

[Bradders]

Good luck in getting this sorted. I know it's unpleasant.

I would suggest (balanced against your own experience of course) that large water changes are in order. Not just 20% ers. You need to give your filter as much help as possible (I think yours has foam and ceramics) to help get stable.

 

[John q]

What is confusing to me, is that it looks so much like ich,

50% of ich cases are actually epistylis, 50 % of epistylis cases are actually ich, should we roll the dice?
Truth is hand wringing and guess work will not help the fish. The sad truth is that in all likely hood the fishes immune system were weakened, and they succumbed to disease x.

So how to proceed? Water changes, large and frequent. Dose an off the shelf specific white spot cure, if its white spot it will work. Better still treat with a product containing Malachite Green, if you can source one, this may or may not help against epistylis. Esha 2000 and exit will not do any harm its my go to medication when we face the "unknown".

Final thoughts: If it is epistylis, you fish will likely die, regardless of any intervention, if its ich this is a common and treatable disease 🤞

 

[Tim Harrison]

Maybe this will be of help

Epistylis sp. • Think smart, think eSHa!

Epistylis sp. are colonial sedentary infusoria belonging to the class of Ciliata, but can be confused with Saprolegnia sp.

eshalabs.com

 

[Dr. White]

Maybe this will be of help

Epistylis sp. • Think smart, think eSHa!

Epistylis sp. are colonial sedentary infusoria belonging to the class of Ciliata, but can be confused with Saprolegnia sp.

eshalabs.com

I hope so! I am just performing another 25% water change, then I'm straight to a local fish shop (not the one who sold me the infected fish!) to pick up some eSHa 2000. I'll then dose both EXIT and 2000 at the same time. Fingers crossed it works. No further mortalities to report this morning, thankfully. But one of the ottos looks very bloated. Not well fed, but bloated. Unlike the cardinals, the ottos have not been feeding through all this. Cheers.