Dosing ferts in cycling tank with cloudy water

[Viggetorr]

I recently started my first ever low tech dirted tank (organic soil capped with 0,7-1,5 mm sand). I bought a bunch of plants and filled it up about 2.5 weeks ago, and cleaned a filter from an established tank give it a head start on the cycling process. Since the start the water has been very cloudy (white), which I understand to be a bacterial reaction and something that will pass on it's own.

Some plants are doing fine (sessiflora, crypts, s. repens, savlinia), but the Monte Carlo and now some of the Hygrophilia Corymbosa Siamensis 53b have started melting (turning transcluscent and falling off). The epiphyte monte carlo have been doing a little better, but I see signs of melting there too now. There are also some signs of thread like algae on primarily the Monte Carlo, but also a little elsewhere. Below is a pic of the tank, and of the melting Monte Carlo (woth some of the algae visible in the background). The photo makes it look redder/browner than it is.The big root have moved a little, and I think that may have caused some of the soil to leech into the water.

My question: should I start dosing the fertilizer I bought (Tropica Specialized Nutrition) 2ml a day, or would that risk increasing the algae problems? I don't want more algae, but of course I also want the plants to die. Would it risk affecting the cloudyness, or is that a separate process?

Specs:
Tank: Juwel Rio 125 (125 l)
Lighting: stock, 8 hours a day. Basically no natural light (in basement)
Co2: None
Ferts: None so far
Water changes: daily during the second week to try and fight the cloudyness, but to no result. Got the advice to let the bacterial bloom sort itself out, so have left it alone for a couple of days now.

Thanks in advance!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS. I'll copy in @Tim Harrison, he is our dirted tank expert <"Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide">

I recently started my first ever low tech dirted tank (organic soil capped with 0,7-1,5 mm sand)....should I start dosing the fertilizer I bought (Tropica Specialized Nutrition) 2ml a day, or would that risk increasing the algae problems?

I think we need to know a little more about the soil and particularly, is all that depth soil? on the right of the picture.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

I very much doubt that a sediment modeled like this will remain so for long.

 

[Viggetorr]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS. I'll copy in @Tim Harrison, he is our dirted tank expert <"Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide">

I think we need to know a little more about the soil and particularly, is all that depth soil? on the right of the picture.

cheers Darrel

Thank you very much!

No, absolutely not. The depth to the right is built using mesh bages and kitty litter (inert). On top of the mesh bags is one inch soil and then roughly 2 inches sand. Below is two pictures showing how it was built.

I very much doubt that a sediment modeled like this will remain so for long.

I guess we'll find out! I'm not planning to have any corys or other fish that rummage to much through the substrate, and my hope is that the plants roots will help keep the sand stable. So far so good after 2.5 weeks!

 

[G H Nelson]

Reduce your lighting to 6 hours and implement the Tutorial below.
Fertilizers don't cause algae, too much light and poor water quality are two causes.
Remove dead or dying plant matter as this only clouds the water more.

Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new, it has benefits especially for a new set - up. I try and cover at least 50% of the water surface minimum. 1. Improves water...

www.ukaps.org

 

[Viggetorr]

Reduce your lighting to 6 hours and implement the Tutorial below.
Fertilizers don't cause algae too much light and poor water quality are two causes.
Remove dead or dying plant matter as this only clouds the water more.

Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new, it has benefits especially for a new set - up. I try and cover at least 50% of the water surface minimum. 1. Improves water...

www.ukaps.org

Thank you. Alright, so I should be able to dose ferts which would hopefully prevent melting while still not contributing to algae growth?

Would reducing the light help with the cloudyness, or is it just to combat algae?

Do you continually strip new growth of their lower leaves, or is it just newly bought plants? It doesn't sound very aesthetic (pictures seem to be broken in the guide so I can't actually see how it looks, is it possible to update them?), but maybe it's just during the startup phase? It won't hurt the plants?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

On top of the mesh bags is one inch soil and then roughly 2 inches sand. Below is two pictures showing how it was built.

Nice.

What was the soil? If it had a large peat component? That might explain some of the water colour. The cloudiness could be clay colloids, which should eventually settle out, or may be long chain humic compounds.

Alright, so I should be able to dose ferts which would hopefully prevent melting while still not contributing to algae growth?

That would be the idea. The problem for us is really too many <"unknown unknowns"> at present - <"Osmocote plus disaster">.

Do you continually strip new growth of their lower leaves, or is it just newly bought plants?

Take of any dead leaves, hopefully once you are over the initial "bump" plant growth should improve and the melting should stop. I'm not sure that your <"https://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Micranthemum-'Monte-Carlo'-(025-TC)/4442"> will ever recover.

Plants that grow rapidly tend to need more maintenance. For this reason I only have two "stem" plants and both of these are <"sub-surface floaters"> allowing easy removal if they need thinning.

cheers Darrel

 

[G H Nelson]

If you are running Co2 I would dose ferts!
It's primarily to combat thread algae as this particular algae can be a pain to eradicate.
Just put the fast-growing plants on the surface....you can always take cuttings and add them to the substrate....then remove them later!

 

[G H Nelson]

I've used this

cloth in the filter with good results!

JBL Symec micro

Fast removal of micro-fine cloudiness in freshwater and marine aquariums: microfibre fleece for aquarium filters

www.jbl.de

 

[Viggetorr]

What was the soil? If it had a large peat component? That might explain some of the water colour. The cloudiness could be clay colloids, which should eventually settle out, or may be long chain humic compounds.

40% light/pale white moss peat, 40% dark white moss peat, 10% bark compost/chicken manure, sand, and 10% limestone powder. pH of the soil: 5.5-6.5.
Let me know if any of the ingredients aren't recognizable, I've translated as best I can from Swedish but these words aren't normally in my vocabulary! 😁

Nutritional content mg/l:

• Nitrongen (N03+NH4): 100
• Phosphorus: 30
• Potassium: 200
• Calcium: 1000

It's "approved for organic farming". As I mentioned, I'm also afraid the sand capping layer may be too thin in some places.

If you are running Co2 I would dose ferts!
It's primarily to combat thread algae as this particular algae can be a pain to eradicate.
Just put the fast-growing plants on the surface....you can always take cuttings and add them to the substrate....then remove them later!

No Co2. Does that mean you wouldn't use ferts? I do have Salvinia growing like weed on the surface!
Do you mean I should have stem plants (like sessiflora) floating around on the surface?

 

[G H Nelson]

Do you mean I should have stem plants (like sessiflora) floating around on the surface?

Yes, you can use sessiflora....one of the reasons I like to use this method is the stems don't get pushed around the surface as much as floating plants do!

 

[Viggetorr]

Yes, you can use sessiflora....one of the reasons I like to use this method is the stems don't get pushed around the surface as much as floating plants do!

And the advantage over having them planted is that they get more light on the surface?

 

[G H Nelson]

And the advantage over having them planted is that they get more light on the surface?

Plus they are used as a net curtain/screen!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

40% light/pale white moss peat, 40% dark white moss peat, 10% bark compost/chicken manure, sand, and 10% limestone powder. pH of the soil: 5.5-6.5.

No, that is fine. I think the tint is probably from the dark sphagnum (moss) peat.

I think you have two options, start again with a <"mineralised soil"> or carry on with what you have. At this point, personally, I'd probably carry on with what you have, although this may prove to be the more difficult of the options - <"I made a substrate from hell, i want to change it">.

Because your soil is mainly peat it will have some oxygen demand as it decomposes. The carbon was captured and accumulated in <"nutrient poor, acidic, anaerobic conditions">, but now you have added nutrients, oxygen and some bases (proton (hydrogen H+ ion) acceptors) and that organic carbon will oxidise to CO2, via microbial decomposition. The time scale for this is just an unknown.

Do you know if the chicken manure was composted with the bark? If it was it has probably lost most of its ammonia (NH3), if it wasn't? then the damage to the Micranthemum "Monte Carlo" may be <"ammonia related">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Viggetorr]

Hi all,

No, that is fine. I think the tint is probably from the dark sphagnum (moss) peat.

I think you have two options, start again with a <"mineralised soil"> or carry on with what you have. At this point, personally, I'd probably carry on with what you have, although this may prove to be the more difficult of the options - <"I made a substrate from hell, i want to change it">.

Because your soil is mainly peat it will have some oxygen demand as it decomposes. The carbon was captured and accumulated in <"nutrient poor, acidic, anaerobic conditions">, but now you have added nutrients, oxygen and some bases (proton (hydrogen H+ ion) acceptors) and that organic carbon will oxidise to CO2, via microbial decomposition. The time scale for this is just an unknown.

Do you know if the chicken manure was composted with the bark? If it was it has probably lost most of its ammonia (NH3), if it wasn't? then the damage to the Micranthemum "Monte Carlo" may be <"ammonia related">.

cheers Darrel

Yeah, I'd really like to carry on. Do you have any advice about how to go about it, or should I just wait for it to clear up? It really is more milky than red/brown (the picture is a little misleading in that regard).

It does not say if the chicken manure was composted with the bark.

Do you have any advice for composition of dirt in future tanks using dirt? I'll be starting two more soon and would like to avoid making the same mistakes.

Plus they are used as a net curtain/screen!

To what advantage?

 

[_Maq_]

to dose ferts which would hopefully prevent melting

No.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Do you have any advice for composition of dirt in future tanks using dirt? I'll be starting two more soon and would like to avoid making the same mistakes.

I'm a <"sand user"> and only add a minimal amount of <"humus and clay">, so I'm probably not the best person to talk to.

Having said that I'd follow @Tim Harrison's tutorial if I was going to go down the soil route <"Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Andy Pierce]

I expect the melting is more caused by transition from emersed to submersed growth forms. It's fine to get melting as long as that is on the old growth (what they had when they were first planted) and not on the new growth. I expect your organic soil has easily sufficient fertiliser content both in substrate and that will leech out into the water column for at least a couple months, particularly without CO2 injection.

 

[Viggetorr]

Hi all,

I'm a <"sand user"> and only add a minimal amount of <"humus and clay">, so I'm probably not the best person to talk to.

Having said that I'd follow @Tim Harrison's tutorial if I was going to go down the soil route <"Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide">.

cheers Darrel

Thank you, I've read it, great read! Hard to find the same brand etc. here in Sweden, unfortunately.

I expect the melting is more caused by transition from emersed to submersed growth forms. It's fine to get melting as long as that is on the old growth (what they had when they were first planted) and not on the new growth. I expect your organic soil has easily sufficient fertiliser content both in substrate and that will leech out into the water column for at least a couple months, particularly without CO2 injection.

I think that some of the new growth has it too, unfortunately.
And I tjhink it makes a lot of sense regarding fertiliser in the water column, giving the color of the water!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hard to find the same brand etc. here in Sweden, unfortunately.

I don't know where you live in Sweden, but you may be able to <"pick your own soil"> particularly if you live near any drumlins <"https://faculty.washington.edu/tswanson/302add/ESS Readings/drumlins_sweden.pdf"> or terminal moraine?

I'll add in @Tyko_N, they may have some suggestions?

I know you don't have a lot of soil in many places, due to a combination of some <"very old rocks">, a cold climate and <"glacial scraping">.

cheers Darrel