Ethics of wild caught fish

[hypnogogia]

I’ve really been wanting some gold laser Cories and a relatively local store currently has some beautiful specimens in stock. They’re wild caught though, and I’ve always been against buying wild caught. I have concerns about the ethics in terms of taking animals from the wild, as well as mortality rates during transport from South America to Europe and then UK, which I assume are quite high. Has this topic ever been discussed here? What are the community members’ thoughts?

 

[Wookii]

I think this has been discussed before a few times, this might be worth looking at:

Aquarium freshwater fish sourced from wild?

This piece today in The Conversation on fish keeping and the aquarium trade caught my eye today, it mentions the issues associated with the (mainly marine) trade in wild caught fish destined for the hobby. I'm keen to only acquire freshwater fish bred in captivity for my tanks. Does anybody...

www.ukaps.org

 

[tam]

I've not pruchased from them, but I've heard this seller recommended and they have tank bred ones: Corys4u
Price list:

 

[seedoubleyou]

tough one isn’t it.

Wild caught fish create employment for local people in the regions they’re caught.

All fish at some point had to be wild caught and eventually head towards being tank bred.

I maybe have my head in the clouds, but I genuinely feel that fish are one of the only animals that we can genuinely provide better environments for at home.
No predators
No competition for food
Great health
In some occasions better habitats

But of course for every pro there’s always a con. So each person has to make their own judgment on what they feel is morally correct or not.

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

Local breeder of Plecs and Cories just shut down his operation. A real shame as any wild caught specimens he took into his care he was able to encourage to breed successfully over and over.

If you are to take from the wild, handing on to a breeder rather than a customer at least feels more ethical. The purpose is to ensure you don’t take any more.

Long story short, people aren’t willing to pay a satisfactory price for freshwater fish. It is simply not profitable to sustain an operation like his, when a majority can and will go towards buying cheaper wild caught options from fish shops.

It is a boom and bust operation for the little guy. If you get successful, you scale up to meet demand. Then, energy/maintenance costs etc immediately removes any profit margin.

It seems dumb as supplying a fish shop would be the best B2B option between breeders and shops on the whole. However, from conversations it seems most fish shops won’t entertain this, as breeders seem to be considered competition 🤷🏻‍♂️

I’ve really been wanting some gold laser Cories and a relatively local store currently has some beautiful specimens in stock. They’re wild caught though, and I’ve always been against buying wild caught.

Could put up a wanted post if you’re not in a rush. Every week folks shut down tanks. Could re-home some Gold Lasers instead.

 

[hypnogogia]

I've not pruchased from them, but I've heard this seller recommended and they have tank bred ones: Corys4u
Price list:

I've bought some on mail order before and they didn't fare well. There's a thread on here about it somewhere. The ones I've found are local, so can pick up myself, but am just unsure about whether I should purchase wild caught or not.

 

[hypnogogia]

Could put up a wanted post if you’re not in a rush. Every week folks shut down tanks. Could re-home some Gold Lasers instead.

Not in a rush at all. I've been waiting for several years!

 

[ScareCrow]

I genuinely feel that fish are one of the only animals that we can genuinely provide better environments for at home.
No predators
No competition for food
Great health
In some occasions better habitats

Not trying to be confrontational, just offering my opinion but I'd say the opposite is true in the majority of cases.
With the exception of some biotope aquariums and species found in very small water volumes (some annual killifish for example), 'we' fail to cater for a lot of species especially those with specific environmental adaptations and rely on their adaptability to keep them.
Not all fish breed in captivity. The fish want to reproduce, they're naturally driven to do so but we're missing something in our aquarium's to allow them to do so.

@hypnogogia if you're going to near Bristol anytime soon I've currently got 18, 3 month old gold lasers growing out.

 

[hypnogogia]

@hypnogogia if you're going to near Bristol anytime soon I've currently got 18, 3 month old gold lasers growing out.

Wow! That would be great. I do pass Bristol on the way to visit my mother in Cardiff sometimes, so could pick up on my way back. How soon is anytime soon?

 

[Tyko_N]

I sit somewhere in between @seedoubleyou and @ScareCrow . Having seen and worked with a fair amount of fish in the wild, you often see diseased, injured, and/or starving ones, as well as some that have ended up in unpleasant water conditions. Not to mention the constant fear of predation. I think that even if our water conditions are not spot on, the reduced stress levels alone could potential lead to a higher quality of life, not that this should excuse us from keeping them in as near natural conditions as possible.

I think good indicators, apart from displaying natural behaviour, are if they breed in captivity (unless they rely on adverse water conditions as spawning triggers) and lifespan. Example: "In nature P. axelrodi is considered a virtually annual fish with individuals over a year old rarely-encountered", if your cardinal tetras live longer than this, make some spawning attempts, and appear healthy, at least I think that they are probably experiencing a better life than they would in the wild. On the other hand, any overly large, delicate, or migratory species (including some catfishes and loaches seen in the trade frequently) might be best left in the wild.

 

[LMuhlen]

I assume that small ornamental fishes spawn so many eggs because they are positioned very low in the food chain and rely on numbers to survive as a species. So most of them would just be eaten in the wild.

 

[Jorge O'Reilly]

I think the important issue is conservation. As pointed out, fish live stressful, hard lives. If you equate it to a human life, you can't buy them and sell them... If you don't, you just have to be reasonable. Wild-caught specimens of abundant and sustainable fisheries would be fine. Easy-to-breed endangered species, IMO, should be bought and introduced ASAP, that might keep them from going extinct. I don't think aquarium trade has the volume to really bring down a fish species, and odds are, you'll do more for. their conservation by buying some even if harvesting them led to a 40% death toll in the process. In my opinion, operating under the premise that animals have "rights" like humans do is detrimental to how well we take care of the resource. The duty we have "towards them" stems from our own ability to understand the world: we mustn't be cruel, and we must keep it as whole as we possibly can.

Besides, you would't believe how BAD the ichthyological resources are managed in South America, if they are half as bad as Argentina is... I've been to a small tributary in Salta province that had endemic corydoras, and I can assure you they'll be an anecdote in less than 20 years.

 

[ScareCrow]

Wow! That would be great. I do pass Bristol on the way to visit my mother in Cardiff sometimes, so could pick up on my way back. How soon is anytime soon?

No rush if you want some/all I'll hold on to them. Otherwise, I was going to add them in with the adults. The few that managed to escape the hang on box and a comment from a cory breeder suggest that they grow faster when in with adults.
I was going to advertise them for sale when they got to 30mm.

 

[hypnogogia]

No rush if you want some/all I'll hold on to them. Otherwise, I was going to add them in with the adults. The few that managed to escape the hang on box and a comment from a cory breeder suggest that they grow faster when in with adults.
I was going to advertise them for sell when they got to 30mm.
View attachment 208732

Have just PM'd you.

 

[seedoubleyou]

Not trying to be confrontational

It’s all open for healthy debate mate. No offence is ever taken.

My post was rather generally speaking and looking back it does come across as being very pro “wild caught”.

That wasn’t my intention.

I’ve struggled to write a proper response because quite frankly I’m on the fence.

While largely I don’t agree with taking stuff from the wild.
I have kept and will again keep wild caught livestock.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Wild caught specimens used to be more common in the past, and most aquarists didn't really give it much thought. But there are far more of us now, due to both population growth and growing interest in related hobbies, so demand is higher and the trade can't possibly be as sustainable as it used to be, especially with subsequent habitat loss and degradation.

Further, I'm not sure there is much in the way of consumer information regarding the ethics of any batch of wild caught fish, or whether the trade is regulated effectively, or at all. And it doesn't necessarily benefit the local or indigenous people for various reasons, not least commercial vested interests and hierarchical community and social structures.

Like any commercial endeavour it's about supply and demand. It doesn't necessarily follow but, it's possible that greater demand will increase the likelihood that the trade will have a negative impact on the environment and conservation, not to mention animal welfare, in order to meet that demand.

I guess it's up to the individual to decide whether they are comfortable with the ethics of buying wild caught exotic fish. But folks can't really claim ignorance when it comes to being a little more aware or better informed of the associated issues.

 

[sparkyweasel]

Wild caught fish create employment for local people in the regions they’re caught.

And give an incentive to preserve the habitat.

 

[Simon Cole]

I tend towards the idea that indigenous fish collectors plan an essential part as custodians of the ecosystems that they manage and collect from. There are already a lot of rotational fishing practices employed, and the emphasis that they put on quality riparian habitat, low sedimentation water quality, and above all scarring-off illegal loggers, miners, and farming encroachment... we couldn't really hope for better allies in the fight for conservation. I don't really buy that the locals don't benefit... it's a fun job in wonderful nature. If they wanted farmland, they would have had it by now. There is already extensive self-regulation, but I know that national regulations tend to limit precisely which species' can be exported (I think there are 350 approved from the Amazon this year?), whilst they record how many are shipped too. I wouldn't import anything wild unless it was sustainable, and most indications are that this can very beneficial because it creates tacit value to the fish, ecosystem, and also they are grown carbon-neutral. There is a list you can check to see whether it is approved for export because stocks are sufficient. I suppose this means that there is enough data to warrant this decision for approval, but it does come down to trust.

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

I have concerns about the ethics in terms of taking animals from the wild, as well as mortality rates during transport from South America to Europe and then UK, which I assume are quite high.

Realise it was never proposed as a question. However, can maybe add an extra dimension to the assumption part once you’re considering arrival in the UK.

Overwhelming killer in our shop, of all stock, is the public. Plain and simple.

Unattended kids smashing on tanks as parents are on phones, adults removing nets and reaching into coral tanks ‘to pet the corals’ covered in hand creams creating an oil slick, adults, yes adults, smacking the glass as they think it’s funny to scare the livestock.

This is everyday, every single day. When politely asking for any of the above actions to stop, we get everything from verbal abuse to physical altercations…. in a fish shop.

We don’t fear treatment of stock by anyone in the trade, we fear things like weekends, school holidays and the 90% of people who come in the store for entertainment.

COVID put store restrictions on shops so only a couple of customers could be in the store at any time and couldn’t faff around, angry crowd eye balling them to get on with their purchase. Fish were never healthier though.

The point is there is no benefit, none, for anyone in the chain to supply unhealthy fish in the transport component, whether wild caught or farm reared. To be on the supply side is sort of self selecting, you’re passionate about the livestock you care for in this process, both caught and their natural habitat, otherwise you wouldn’t have a business. No one buys dead fish.

So to the point… Mortality rates from personal experience directly correlates with the amount of exposure the stock get to a very cruel public.

Yes, yes, this is a rant. Apologies. Know it’s pointless posting this on UKAPS, we are on here as we collectively love all things aquatic and elsewhere. But instead of just ethical debates on the matter, it would be so good, so so good to see an actively enforced policy that punishes those who engage in cruel acts against livestock. They are all on CCTV but it’s pointless if nothing comes of it.

 

[Jack B]

I tend towards the idea that indigenous fish collectors plan an essential part as custodians of the ecosystems that they manage and collect from. There are already a lot of rotational fishing practices employed, and the emphasis that they put on quality riparian habitat, low sedimentation water quality, and above all scarring-off illegal loggers, miners, and farming encroachment... we couldn't really hope for better allies in the fight for conservation. I don't really buy that the locals don't benefit... it's a fun job in wonderful nature. If they wanted farmland, they would have had it by now. There is already extensive self-regulation, but I know that national regulations tend to limit precisely which species' can be exported (I think there are 350 approved from the Amazon this year?), whilst they record how many are shipped too. I wouldn't import anything wild unless it was sustainable, and most indications are that this can very beneficial because it creates tacit value to the fish, ecosystem, and also they are grown carbon-neutral. There is a list you can check to see whether it is approved for export because stocks are sufficient. I suppose this means that there is enough data to warrant this decision for approval, but it does come down to trust.

Anyone know where such a list can be viewed?