GSA - NPK and ppm

[MichaelJ]

I daresay that commercial "complete" fertilizers are definitely NOT a way to become advanced aquarium plants keeper

Hi @_Maq_ That hinges on how you define "advanced aquarium plants keeper"... I probably do not fit in that category and I probably do not aspire to do so.

From that follows that you can never tell which of those commercial products is best. It depends on parameters of your tap water. Some of them may work perfectly in London while useless in Copenhagen, and vice versa. The result = given fertilizer + your own very unique tap water.

Given the fact that most will use tap water, you certainly have a point regarding the efficiency of these Complete fertilizers as tap water can vary a great deal as we know. I do think however, that it is a gray area where we can safely recommend a good "complete" fertilizer and trust that it will do a reasonable job for many plants at various water parameters - almost certainly not perfect, but well enough to keep most hobbyist happy with their plants.

I believe a product like Tropica Specialized is especially well suited for very soft acidic waters which often means RO water as a starting point. In one of my low-tech tanks I remineralize my RODI water with CaSO4/MgSO4 and a tiny bit of K2CO3 and everything else is from Tropica Specialized (which is considered "complete") in small amounts. Everything in that particular tank is doing very well. And people that I would consider advanced plant keepers, have had good success with Specialized and clones of Specialized under similar conditions. I am not sure how well it would work in very hard tap water.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Happi]

Hi all,

It seems Im starting to have a problem with Green Spot Algae - I think - plz see pics below. The background is Ive just rearranged my aquarium and started it up again, after its been running for about one year. Since the rearrangement its been running for approx 14 days, with new plants, gravel, rocks, filters. Some fish from the old setup and some new.

After the aquarium was running ok for about 10 days I started to see some spots on some of the leaves and on the rocks.

Specs of the tank are: 350 liters, Co2 (6 drop sec), 2 x Juwel Bioflow L filter (with material from old filter), Chihiro light (run at approx 45%) 9 hrs a day with half an hour ladder. 30-40% water change once a week.

Regarding Nutrition I use 8 mL of Tropica Nutrition on a daily basis (4 pumps on the dispencer). And as I belive the tank suffers from nutrition deficiency, I started to add (NPK): 5mL of Seachen Flourish Nitrogen twice a week along with 4 mL of Seachem Flourish Phosphorous and 4 mL of Seachem Flourish Potassium - both on a daily basis.

Now I wonder if it really is GSA and if Im right, I want to hear whether the amount of NPK is too much or too little? I dont know how to count in PPM, so I hope the measures are right?? Found dosing instructions on Seachem`s homepage.

Regards Elroy

I will start with the specs of my tank, which have been running for about a month now:

Juwel 350 liter, 2 x Juwel Bioflow L filter (with material from old filter), Co2 (8 drop sec), Chihiro light (run at approx 45%) 9 hrs a day with half an hour ladder. 40% water change, once a week.

Fish: 12 Lemon Tetra, 10 Red Phantom Tetra, 9 Siamese algae eater, 9 Corydoras Sterbai, 6 Blue Acara.

Plants: Valisneria, Amazon Sword, Hornworth, Guppy grass, Ludwigia palustris 'super red', Limnophila sessiliflora, Ludwigia arcuate and some Phyllanthus fluitans.

my very first immediate impression is that your water must have lot of Sulfur in it. Those stones are also contributing some of your algae issues that usually form some kind of brown algae such as Diatoms. is your water very hard as well? Post a water report if possible. the substrate is just a inert substrate without any root tabs or anything like that?

your selection of plants doesn't even require additional CO2, they should do fairly well. you must have decent load of N and P coming from the fish waste and you should be fine just dosing Tropica Premium every few days, targeting 0.1-0.3 ppm Fe dose weekly or dose 40 ml Tropica Premium 3x week, each dose will ad 0.08 ppm Fe, total 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. you really don't need to add Seachem N, P, K at all.

I apparently got it all wrong from the start, as I added excessively too little fertilizer, I was told. In addition to this, I apparently had too few plants, so I planted some more - a week ago. And according to a fertilizer advice, I started to add 11,5 ml Tropica Nutrition, 8 ml Phosphate, 8 ml of Potassium and 4,5 ml Nitrogen and. That’s on a daily basis. The NPK are from Seachem.

First - Are the following amount(s) ok or shall I increase or decrease the quantity of fertilizer?

Try the Above recommendation.

Second – I would like to start to use a mixed solution of fertilizer, as I find it to be easier. Don’t know if it is better, though? But it is cheaper, as I don’t have to buy the Seachem products – I guess. How much of Tropica Specialised shall I use and do I need some extra NPK?

during this time, Skip Tropica Specialized or any N and P.

Third – Which mixed fertilizer shall I use? I’m leaning towards Tropica Specialised, as it is easy for me to get. But I might be interested in the Solufeed brand you wrote about. Is that liquid or solid form?

you should look into Solufeed Sodium Free Trace element and then make your own solution at home, its in dry powder form, just follow that link and all the information is there.

Fourth – Im am really a dork to calculate ppm. I know that it is short for Parts Per Million. But that’s about it. Do you know if there is somewhere on the internet where I can read about using it – where there are pre made formula’s or something like it.

I use Different Method/approach for calculation but you can simply start with the IFC Calculator and play around with it and understand the functions.

Fifth - I will ask you if you can identify what the green/black thing on the plant leaves are - Diatoms; GSA or something else?

i see Diatoms and some kind of green algae in some other areas. the pictures are bit blurry.

most importantly, you don't even have to try hard for the plants you are keeping.

 

[_Maq_]

That hinges on how you define "advanced aquarium plants keeper"... I probably do not fit in that category and I probably do not aspire to do so.

This place is an aquatic plants society, so I allowed myself to suppose that its members' ambition is to get "advanced". That's definitely an ambition of mine.
That said, CO2 injection is so mighty booster that many hobbyists may get fine results even if committing faults in nutrition.

 

[Elroy]

Hi,

Thanks for the rekomendations. Ill start right away, as I do WC on fridays.

To recap the things I learned (yet there are a lot of reading to come), I'll add 16ml Tropica Premium on a daily basis, targeting a total of 0.22-0,25 ppm Fe weekly - accordingly to this calculator Planted Tank Nutrient Dosing Calculator. To a beginning I will add some Potassium too, as my Vallisneria and Svord plants shows signs of nutrition deficiency - some holes and slightly yellow leaves. Guess 6 to 8 ml on a daily basis can do it?

Regarding CO2 i will leave it as it is - (6dps). You are right that I/the plants really dont need it, but It looks as if the plants dont mind it, so to speak, so I keep on dosing it.

As I still fight with some GSA, I guess I will have to add some Phosphorus aswell - at least for a given period? Regarding the Diatoms, I will await the tank to mature, so they will disappear by themselves.

And regarding Solufeed and the IFC Fert Calculator, I will have to do some serious reading, as there are a lot to take in.

Cheers Elroy

 

[Elroy]

Hi,

Just managed to get the attached water test analysis from my local water distribution compagny. Besides that I can inform that PH is 6.8 and KH is around 11-12

 

[Elroy]

Hi all,

just two quick questions. Above I got the advice from @Happi saying; Dose Tropica Premium every few days, targeting 0.1-0.3 ppm Fe dose weekly or dose 40 ml Tropica Premium 3x week, each dose will ad 0.08 ppm Fe, total 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. you really don't need to add Seachem N, P, K at all.

If I use the Planted Tank Nutrient Dosing Calculator, for a 350 liter tank, Planted Tank Nutrient Dosing Calculator it say that I, in order to reach a target of 0.24ppm Fe, will need to add 121.7 milliliter (equivalent to 8 tbsp + 0 tsp + 1/2 tsp + 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp ) Tropica Plant Growth Premium to my 350L aquarium to yield.

So, in order to get it right, shall I then add approx 120 ml (divided with 7 = 17ml) of Tropica Premium all weekdays or, shall I add 40 ml 3 times a week. What is best?

And regarding not to use N and P, I can see some GSA comming up again. I did a 40 % water change last friday and wiped all GSA away from glass and a fairly bit of the rocks aswell. So that was a quick flourishing of GSA, I think. Now, what do you think - shall I keep on dosing Phosphate (8 ml a day), as GSA apparently is due to lack (or too much) of this nutrient or shall not add it and I await and see how things turn out? I will get a HI 713 Phosphate checker late next week, so I can measure the Phosphate levels quite accurate. I use a test kit from Tetra right now and dont find it precise enough. Last reading shoved a Phosphate lvl between 0 mg/l and 0,5 mg/l. Very imprecise.

Cheers Elroy

 

[Hufsa]

So, in order to get it right, shall I then add approx 120 ml (divided with 7 = 17ml) of Tropica Premium all weekdays or, shall I add 40 ml 3 times a week. What is best?

When it comes to plant nutrients, dosing often is usually better than dosing seldom.
If you can remember to dose every day, then I would recommend doing that, 17 ml daily to reach Happi's targets looks correct here.

And regarding not to use N and P, I can see some GSA comming up again. I did a 40 % water change last friday and wiped all GSA away from glass and a fairly bit of the rocks aswell. So that was a quick flourishing of GSA, I think. Now, what do you think - shall I keep on dosing Phosphate (8 ml a day), as GSA apparently is due to lack (or too much) of this nutrient or shall not add it and I await and see how things turn out?

I think it might be clarifying to you if I say that there are a few different methods of fertilizing aquariums, and the advice you receive for, lets call it "Method A", will not be combinable with the advice for "Method B".
So if you have chosen a method that you want to try, you sort of have to stick to the advice that is for the specific method you have chosen, otherwise it gets really confusing very fast.

On this forum we have members that use all kinds of different methods, and all of us want to help you achieve your goals in the way that we personally think is best.
If you get advice on this forum or elsewhere on the internet, the person giving the advice may not know which method you have chosen to try, and therefore could (without meaning to) give advice that doesnt work with your current method. If you have decided to try Happi's method then I would try to rely mostly on advice from him so that you know it fits with his method.
Happi's method can be classified as a type of "Lean dosing". Another popular dosing type is called "EI", which stands for Estimative Index.
I suggest to not try to apply advice for EI method onto a Lean method, because they are too different.

I hope some of what I wrote makes sense, and maybe it makes it a bit easier to navigate all the knowledge and advice available out there on the internet

 

[Elroy]

Hei Nordmand,

Takk for svaret ditt 👍 Hvor i Norge er du fra? Moren til barna mine er fra Trondheim. Jeg kommer fra Skagen i Danmark. Jeg skal ta en titt på lenken din - det er mange sider å komme gjennom, men jeg tror jeg kan greie det. And Now I will continue in english.

Thanks for the answer. It makes sense I will continue dosing approx 17 ml of Tropica Premium on a daily basis. And yes, you are right, there are just as many different methods to in how to dose fertilisers as there are members of UKAPS. I have to pick one and stick to that. So I go for @Happi`s method and see how it turns out. Just wondering wether to add Phosphate or not - when I aparently have GSA?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Just wondering wether to add Phosphate or not - when I aparently have GSA?

No, just <"add it all the time">. Once you are <"happy with plant growth">, so that you have a stable bottom line, you can start reducing (or increasing) nutrient levels if you feel you need to.

We don't know why raising phosphate (PO4---) levels works to control Green Spot Algae (GSA). Personally I think it is <"probably an iron (Fe) effect">, with the elevated levels of PO4--- ions <"removing iron (Fe++(+)) ions from solution">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Elroy]

Thanks Darrel,

​

I will just add Tropica Premium and leave all other nutrients out, until things seems to be stable. Then I might, just might, start to reduce/increase nutrient levels, if needed. Still wondering a bit on the lean dosing method, though. I read somewhere that Nitrates and phosphates come from fish poop and the soil. But as I dont use soil in my, tank wont I be needing Phosphates, at least a little bit? I do use some Nutrition Capsules with Svord plants, but thats it.

Cheers Elroy

 

[Elroy]

Hi again,

Here is an update, since my last post on sunday. Things are not just going so smooth and well as I hoped for. I got a blooming of GSA. Its already gotten worse to days after last water change, that it was a week from the previous water chance. If you understand? I think it is due to not adding Phosphates, but Im not sure. Not at all.

To recap things, I do water changes friday and I add 17 ml of Tropica Premium on a daily basis. Do any of you have an idea of the reason for the GSA blooming or shall I just await and see how things turn out? Maybe its just too soon to assume things?

And now Im split between the Lean- and EI dosing method.

On one hand I feel like going for the lean dosing method @Happi suggested, where I add only 17 ml Tropica Premium on a daily basis, as he thought I must have decent load of N and P coming from the fish waste. But I guess I have to add some Phosphates as I dont think the plant mass will get enough from waste breakdown. What do you think?

On the other hand I think of using the EI method could be right for me, as some of you suggested. But then again, Im not sure. Guess Im stuck between a rock and a hard place. Plz say which way I shall go - and I will do so, as long it not is filled with GSA. I dont mind doing water changes, cutting/trimming plants and so on, so it shouldn't affect which method I use

Cheers Elroy

 

[Happi]

I got a blooming of GSA.

Are you sure it's GSA? And not GDA?

 

[Elroy]

Looks like GSA, but Im not sure. I will post pictures tomorrow. Too late now, as lights in the tank are out. So approx 15:00 GMT+1 I will be back

 

[Elroy]

Hi,

Had the opportunity to post now, so here we go. As you can see on the attached pictures, some areas are covered in algae. Its maybe not algae overgrowth at the moment, but it will be, if I dont react. As I wrote I think its GSA but Im not sure at all.

And plz bare with me. My camera isn't the best at taking macro pix, but Im sure you can see the problem(s). How do I deal with the algae issue the best way? Plz feel free to comment. Thank you in advance.

Cheers Elroy

 

[Hufsa]

In your first picture (of the CO2 diffuser), the green spots are beginnings of cyanobacteria (also sometimes called blue green algae). We can tell because it has a special blueish hue to the green color that other algae doesnt have.

The brown stuff on the diffuser is diatoms, diatoms are most commonly associated with new tanks, but they can also occur in tanks that have been reset or been disturbed enough to upset the balance of the tank.
I also see them along the glass and on some of the hardscape.
Diatoms are not a problem (they are kinda the best algae to have), because they pass on their own as the tank matures.
Its possible that your tank needs to go through a new "ugly phase" since you reset many of the parts of the tank, making it behave like a newly started tank again.

Otherwise I see a few bits of green algae, which is not entirely bad because green algae requirements is the most similar to plant requirements out of the algae types.

Since your tank has CO2 injection (your plants will be growing faster than low tech tanks), I would trim away the oldest leaves of the swordplants that arent looking great.
Removing the oldest and poorly looking leaves will allow the plant to focus its energy on making new leaves rather than spending a lot of energy trying to save the old leaves.

To see whether or not the fertilizing method is working for your tank, I would look primarily at the newest growth on the plants. This is where the "updated" growth will come, so for example in the sword plants, it will be the leaves that are coming from the center of the plant. If these look good then you could just try to ride out the ugly phase of the tank, and see it if stabilizes itself with regular maintenance.
I personally think that a really good way to manage the aquarium is to focus on the plants, not on the algae.
So instead of asking yourself "why do I have algae?", you can ask yourself " is there anything I can do to improve my plants?".
We dont entirely know why, but healthy plants are really good at preventing algae. So a philosophy that aims to make the plants the healthiest they can be, will often also deal with algae, just in a non direct way.
Many skilled aquarists (much more skilled than me for sure), manage their tanks this way. Algae is a symptom, not the cause, if that makes sense.

I wont be able to tell you what you should do further, its kinda something you have to decide.
A few things that might be a hinderance for using a lean method is that you have quite high KH, and inert substrate.
Based on forum experience, it seems that tanks with higher KH sometimes have more issues uptaking nutrients, and sometimes seem to do better on a richer fertilizing regime.
Inert substrate is very practical (im a fan myself), but will not do anything to contribute to fertilizing, since it doesnt contain anything. So getting the fertilizer "just right" in a sand tank is more difficult than in an aquasoil tank.

On the other hand, your tank is fairly well stocked and doesnt have a ton of very fast growing plants, so the nutrient requirements may be lower because of that.
Using EI method takes the focus away from fertilizer for the most part, but in return you have to manage CO2, flow and maintenance very well.
They both have their pros and cons really. Personally (and people might get a bit angry with me for this), I find EI method to be the simplest method to start out with for a beginner.

 

[Elroy]

Hi Hufsa,

Thanks for the reply. I will start trimming the plants for the oldest/poorest looking leaves, so new leaves gets the best start possible. And on friday I do water change and will clean glass and interior the best I can.

And yep, the question "is there anything I can do to improve my plants?" I have asked myself many times. I guess Ive done my fair share of reading and asking in this forum, in fact so much Im starting to get a bit confused.

So, if I, as a beginner, shall chose the best dosing method I have to take the following in consideration; Lack of soil, chek my water analysis, unmature tank, high KH, algae, not a lot of fast groving plants, CO2, maintenance and so on. As I dont mind doing water changes, cutting/trimming plants and so on, it shouldn't affect which method I will go for/you recomend.

I need a gentle push in the right direction. I find it hard to pick the pick, so to speak. So, whats in the favor of chosing the EI dosing method vs the favor of chosing the Lean dosing method? Yes, I read your lines above, but what will be the best/right way for me when I have the 350 liter tank, water parameters (see attached above), fish, plants, CO2 with 6-8bps, 11 KH and so on, as I do?

Will I have to do something like the following, if I chose EI - or can I dose macro and micro at the same time every day? And how much of each will I have to add to my 350 liter tank? I use Tropica Premium and NPK from Seachem

• Saturday: Dose macronutrients (NPK)
• Sunday: Dose micronutrients (trace elements)
• Monday: Dose macros
• Tuesday: Dose micros
• Wednesday: Dose macros
• Thursday: Dose Micros
• Friday: Perform 40-50% water change and do maintenance - no fertlizer

And if I chose the Lean method, do I have to add anything else than Tropica Premium, as I aparently get N and P from the fish waste? Just wondering if I do have enough K or do I get that from waste breakdown? What do you think? If this is the pick I will aim for a total of 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. Then I will add 17 ml of Tropica Premium on a daily basis - according to Planted Tank Nutrient Dosing Calculator.

Despite the high KH I have and the problems in getting the fretilizer "just right" in a sand tank Im kinda more into the Lean method than the EI method. Dont know why, though.

After Im done chosing a fertlizer method I will do the water changes, maintenance, trimming plants and so on for a month, so things will settle and I will be back with an update.. So plz, push me, gentle

Cheers Elroy

 

[bazz]

And now Im split between the Lean- and EI dosing method.

I've found over the years that one of the main factors which is often overlooked is stability. Consistently altering water parameters, fert dosing and lighting, etc will not benefit the ecosystem and if you do change anything wait for at least 6 to 8 weeks keeping an eye on the new growth, before implementing a different strategy (unless it is clearly going wrong). Unfortunately growing aquatic plants is not a hobby which rewards with instant gratification but takes time and effort.
A couple more bunches of fast growing stems in your tank would not go amiss (Hygrophila Siamensis 53b or Limnophila Sessiflora are both fast growers), you can always remove them at a later date if they do not fit in with your plans.
Relax and keep calm, time is your friend.
Cheers!

 

[Andy Pierce]

Brave up and use dry salts for EI dosing. You will never to back to commercial fertiliser products after you try it.

 

[Elroy]

Thanks bazz,

I will go buy some of the plants you you have suggested. Think I might replace Limnophila sessiliflora with Rotala rotundifolia 'H'ra', as I like red plants - or I just buy them both. And I know things takes time and that stability is one of the main factors, so I will try to be as calm and collected as possible. Still considering whether it should be one or the other fertilizer method, though

Cheers

 

[Elroy]

Thanks Andy Pierce,

Found this and will look into it The Estimative Index (EI) Dosing with Dry Salts

Cheers