Heavy planting equals no cycle?

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Mark.A

At the risk of mentioning something that may bring me hate mail, I cannot stay silent on this one. I use Tetra SafeStart to kick-start the biological filter. This is a well-proven product. I have 'cycled' a tank in 6 days using this product. After this, the biological filter and plants can share the load of processing nitrogenous waste from fish, substrate, etc. And, given time, the bacteria used in SafeStart will take a back-seat view and let Archaea take over.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

German Blue Rams

Hi @Mark.A

GBRs will benefit from a tank that's been up-and-running for at least three months. I have kept and bred GBRs and they need a good deal of TLC!

JPC

 

[Mark.A]

Which shops are you ordering plants and fish from - both would be able to send you some “cycled” filter media if so inclined, so I’d ask
Even a small amount of “starter culture” is useful

The plants I am looking at ordering are from a guy running a Facebook group “World of Mosses”, he gets very good comments and seems to give good value and healthy plants.

The fish I am looking at getting from www.tropco.co.uk they seem legit and have all the fish I am after.

From your previous thread where you discuss the Fluval Flex 123 - was the tank just on display out of the box, or actually running as a fish/plants display tank?

The tank was on display but not running.

Phosphate thread from Tuesday indicate tank is already running - I’m assuming it’s scaped with substrate, stone and wood in place

Correct.

A couple of considerations with this Flex
- the actual footprint for fish is significantly smaller than the actual tank dimensions (unless you’ve removed the filter section and are using an external filter?)

No, I haven’t removed the internal filter.

- lighting is very low on this particular Flex (Fluval makes the oddest choices - while significantly reducing the lighting on this Flex, they continue to promote it with box photos of thriving plants that are unlikely to grow (in this manner) with the stock lighting )

Yes, I know. This is why I have all easy, low light plants.

The Blue Rams and Dwarf Gourami are the only “difficult” fish, intensive breeding has created fish stock that is much more sensitive than wild caught versions, and both have significant instance of (relatively species specific) iridovirus

Hi @Mark.A

GBRs will benefit from a tank that's been up-and-running for at least three months. I have kept and bred GBRs and they need a good deal of TLC!

JPC

I have kept both the rams and the gourami several times before successfully so I have no worries that I’ll be able to keep them.

As you won’t see the fish beforehand, and there may be some unexpected shipping stress, I suggest having some basic medications on hand
eSHa Exit (external parasites) - if possible find a formalin/malachite green treatment
eSHa 2000 (bacterial infections, mostly effective for external bacterial challenge)
eSHa ndx (internal parasites including some worms)

Yeah I have.

 

[alto]

Yes, I know. This is why I have all easy, low light plants.

I’ve done setups in Spec 19, Flex 37 & 54, but hadn’t realized that lighting was significantly lower in the Flex 123

 

[Mark.A]

I’ve done setups in Spec 19, Flex 37 & 54, but hadn’t realized that lighting was significantly lower in the Flex 123

Yeah, the one LED strip that the Flex 123L comes supplied with is perfect for low light. If you want medium light then there is the option to add a second LED strip. With the smaller Flex tanks the LED lighting supplied is already meant to be enough for medium light. This is so that those who don't want medium light don't have to pay the extra cost of the second LED strip in with the tank purchase.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’m beginning to think it may be better to just get the plants first, leave it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add the fish gradually

I suggest adding L sessiliflora as a fast growing (very tolerant indicator) plant

That is what I do. I've gone to using <"Ceratophyllum demersum as my stem">, because it is a quick grower and easy to remove. The "grow in" period is really the bit that is important, adding the fish slowly is just a precautionary measure.

If you think about traditional ammonia based cycling you are measuring the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and they tell you when your tank is cycled. In some ways yo are doing the same thing when you plant the tank up and let it grow in, but in this case you are watching the plant growth. Watching plant growth is just a lot more straightforward.

These are the plants I plan to get from the start:

Anubias coffeefolia
Anubias nana petite
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Nymphaea rubra.......

You definitely need a floating plant, particularly if you want to add the fish in one go. Because these aren't CO2 limited (<"the leaves are in the air">) they can potentially suck up a lot more ammonia. I like <"Amazon Frogbit"> (Limnobium laevigatum), but Salvinia or Pistia would perform the same role. Have a look at <"Do we really need ....">.

The Amazon Frogbit that had really been pumping iron (and everything else) was @Timon Vogelaar's (below) (from <"An Iwagumi .....">)

cheers Darrel


.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

At the risk of mentioning something that may bring me hate mail, I cannot stay silent on this one. I use Tetra SafeStart to kick-start the biological filter.

It definitely isn't <"going to do any harm">, whether it makes any difference is probably going to depend upon <"how it is produced">.

My guess is that there are a number of ways of getting to a <"fish-safe environment">, it is back to the <"shades of grey world"> with lots of variables.

I don't really care how people get there, I just want them to end up with a <"planted tank, which always has plenty of dissolved oxygen"> in the water.

I know (from my day job) that you can successfully <"process wastes with a really high BOD"> if you can get enough oxygen into the water. Add in plants and you have increased that capacity by <"another order of magnitude">.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

I have kept both the rams and the gourami several times before successfully so I have no worries that I’ll be able to keep them.

Hi @Mark.A

Just thought I should check.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi all,It definitely isn't <"going to do any harm">, whether it makes any difference is probably going to depend upon <"how it is produced">.

Hi @dw1305

Tetra SafeStart can certainly make a big difference to cycle duration. I know this from my own experiments plus hands-on experience. I am also a member of A N Other Forum where SafeStart is the 'go to' choice of all its members. Before settling on SafeStart, I tried several other bottled bacteria products - many of which were as much use as a chocolate teapot! Obviously, I don't know how SafeStart is produced. Nor do I need to. I have read articles by Dr Tim Hovanec in which he talks about some of the challenges of keeping bacteria alive in a bottle. What is curious about the SafeStart bottle is the transparent window on its side. Its purpose is to view how much is in the bottle. But, nitrifying bacteria can be killed by light - particularly in the blue and UV part of the spectrum. If a supplier or the end-user stores this in a brightly-lit location, my hunch is that this could affect the bacteria population.

JPC

 

[dean]

I would add all the plants snails and any shrimp
Leave it 2 weeks so you can get the lighting right and sort Out any algae problems
Then I would take some mature media from an existing tank and add that when the fish arrive

I would also have floating plants to help out for the first 6 months if not forever


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Aqua360]

The "safe start" stuff, to my understanding keeps the ammonia at a low level, stressing the fish but not killing them while the bacteria play catch up to establish.

Definitely not a good idea in shrimp tanks, where ammonia will kill them ridiculously quickly; nor is it the best for fish in my opinion, I don't really want to stress fish out more than necessary.

Different ways to skin a cat, but id say the very best results come to those with patience!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but id say the very best results come to those with patience!

My view as well. Just wait and let the tank grow in.

I'm pretty sure it helps the fish acclimate as well, they can scatter into the plants if they need to, or shoal together under the floating plants if that makes them feel more comfortable. It also reduces "line of sight" aggression.

Because I use rain-water the tanks often have a reasonable cargo of Daphnia, Cyclops & Ostracods etc before the fish go in. Which also gives you something to look at



When I added the <"Copella sp. and Corydoras pygmaeus"> to the tank, it had been <"set up along time">, but for 99% of that time the filter wasn't running. The Corydoras instantly disappeared and I didn't see more then one or two of them for the next ~week, but the Copella were straight out of the bag and trying to eat anything that moved, while I was still coaxing the catfish out of their bag.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

The "safe start" stuff, to my understanding keeps the ammonia at a low level, stressing the fish but not killing them while the bacteria play catch up to establish.

Hi @Aqua360

SafeStart does not stress the fish for two reasons:

1 If used as suggested, this will be for fishless cycling. But, it can be added to a tank at any time of one's choosing.

2 Why would Dr Tim Hovanec, the developer of SafeStart and himself a keen fishkeeper, add anything that would cause stress to fish? Or any other tank inhabitants for that matter?

At the end of the day, if people choose not to use nitrifying bacteria starters, so be it. I have no commercial interests in SafeStart. I just know it 'does what it says on the tin'. Plastic bottle, actually.

JPC

 

[Aqua360]

Hi @Aqua360

SafeStart does not stress the fish for two reasons:

1 If used as suggested, this will be for fishless cycling. But, it can be added to a tank at any time of one's choosing.

2 Why would Dr Tim Hovanec, the developer of SafeStart and himself a keen fishkeeper, add anything that would cause stress to fish? Or any other tank inhabitants for that matter?

At the end of the day, if people choose not to use nitrifying bacteria starters, so be it. I have no commercial interests in SafeStart. I just know it 'does what it says on the tin'. Plastic bottle, actually.

JPC

Can you prove it doesn't stress fish? I can't prove it does stress them, but i'd think more members than not would agree with me, perhaps not.

1) why use it for fishless cycling, does that not nullify the point in it, it doesn't actually introduce living bacteria; so I don't believe it does cycle a tank faster.

2) £££

 

[jaypeecee]

I don't believe it does cycle a tank faster.

Fine.

JPC

 

[Wookii]

Can you prove it doesn't stress fish? I can't prove it does stress them, but i'd think more members than not would agree with me, perhaps not.

1) why use it for fishless cycling, does that not nullify the point in it, it doesn't actually introduce living bacteria; so I don't believe it does cycle a tank faster.

2) £££

I think you might be getting confused between products. Tetra Safe Start is a live bacteria additive.

I tried it with tank start up whilst cycling, but didn’t feel it increased the cycling speed beyond standard natural cycling. I certainly wouldn’t want to use it to add fish instantly to a brand new tank as directed on the bottle.

 

[jaypeecee]

Tetra Safe Start is a live bacteria additive...I tried it with tank start up whilst cycling, but didn’t feel it increased the cycling speed beyond standard natural cycling.

Hi @Wookii

OK, that's fair enough. I have a few observations:

1 Perhaps you tried SafeStart in a planted tank where the plants were taking up a high proportion of the nitrogen compounds.

2 SafeStart comes into its own when fishless cycling a tank from scratch. I use ammonium chloride crystals to obtain a starting Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) of 2.0 ppm. After it has done its job, then that is the time to start adding fish and plants.

3 Was the SafeStart 'in date'?

4 Did you store it in a bright light setting?

JPC

 

[Wookii]

Hi @Wookii

OK, that's fair enough. I have a few observations:

1 Perhaps you tried SafeStart in a planted tank where the plants were taking up a high proportion of the nitrogen compounds.

2 SafeStart comes into its own when fishless cycling a tank from scratch. I use ammonium chloride crystals to obtain a starting Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) of 2.0 ppm. After it has done its job, then that is the time to start adding fish and plants.

3 Was the SafeStart 'in date'?

4 Did you store it in a bright light setting?

JPC

I cycled the tank before adding plants and lighting - you may remember us discussing it before Christmas.

The Tropica Soil powder I used as substrate was leaching plenty of ammonia, so I never needed to add an external source.

It was a brand new in date bottle, from Pets At Home - it went from shop to tank within an hour.

 

[Aqua360]

I think you might be getting confused between products. Tetra Safe Start is a live bacteria additive.

I tried it with tank start up whilst cycling, but didn’t feel it increased the cycling speed beyond standard natural cycling. I certainly wouldn’t want to use it to add fish instantly to a brand new tank as directed on the bottle.

Just because it says it's living bacteria in a bottle, is it actually? I'm not trying to be awkward, but as a marketer myself, anything can be twisted.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Wookii

I cycled the tank before adding plants and lighting - you may remember us discussing it before Christmas.

My memory isn't what it used to be. So, apologies, I don't remember our discussion.

The Tropica Soil powder I used as substrate was leaching plenty of ammonia, so I never needed to add an external source.

OK, there may be a clue there. If Total Ammonia was greater than 5 ppm, that may cause a problem. If that was the case, then that would be a point in favour of using plants to establish a safe environment for fish and other inhabitants. Do you have any ammonia measurements from that point in time?

It was a brand new in date bottle, from Pets At Home - it went from shop to tank within an hour.

OK, so there shouldn't have been a problem there.

I want to make the point that I'll use whatever works best when first setting up a tank. Whether that be SafeStart or XYZ is neither here nor there.

JPC