High tech without filter ?

[eminor]

Hello, what would happen if i run a tank with co2, high light and only a strong powerhead, is it possible ? thx

 

[Wookii]

I'd wager it'd be fine as long as you don't have fish. Even a low stocking density of finish might be fine, but its a larger risk not having the 'backup' of a filter.

The biggest issue you'll face is a rapid build up of mulm and detritus if the tank is heavily planted with stems. You only need to see the muddy water produced when washing out a decent canister pre-filter to see how much crap it removes from the tank on a weekly basis.

 

[eminor]

I'd wager it'd be fine as long as you don't have fish. Even a low stocking density of finish might be fine, but its a larger risk not having the 'backup' of a filter.

The biggest issue you'll face is a rapid build up of mulm and detritus if the tank is heavily planted with stems. You only need to see the muddy water produced when washing out a decent canister pre-filter to see how much crap it removes from the tank on a weekly basis.

There is only shrimp in that tank, there is a lot of plants though, kind of dutch scape

 

[Kalum]

I'd say once fully established with a high plant mass it should be totally fine with a few key caveats (increased maintainance), and it might need more of a bedding in time than usual before I'd be comfortable introducing live stock

As @Wookii said above you'd have to be on top of regular upkeep as you won't have that safety net of the filter

 

[Andy Pierce]

Hello, what would happen if i run a tank with co2, high light and only a strong powerhead, is it possible ? thx

TL;DR: if this is a heavily live-planted tank, nothing will happen, you'll be totally fine.

I have essentially the set-up you describe (Current setup - Fireplace aquarium). It nominally has an "under gravel" filter but I suspect that doesn't actually do much, possibly nothing at all since I've done no maintenance on it for a year or two and don't intend to ever do any. To @Wookii's point about the filter looking nasty when you wash it out, I'm not sure how much of that nastiness is stuff the filter has removed from the tank, and how much of that is nastiness the filter itself has generated; I suspect actually a lot of it will be self-generated. I haven't had what I would describe as problems with mulm or detritus. The one exception to that was when I tore out a marsilea carpet that was getting leggy. That generated a lot of essentially neutral density particulate debris (very fine root fragments) that would not settle out on its own. That would have been cleared by a filter but instead I did a number of serial water changes to essentially dilute it away. I dose EI and do 50% weekly water changes. A couple times a year I might do a "big" 80-90% water change if things are starting to look questionable. I do run an air bubbler to help make oxygenation a non-issue - inhibitants seem happy and healthy.

 

[Wookii]

To @Wookii's point about the filter looking nasty when you wash it out, I'm not sure how much of that nastiness is stuff the filter has removed from the tank, and how much of that is nastiness the filter itself has generated

It's all from the tank - it's the pre-filter I'm talking about, not the main filter itself - they get washed out thoroughly weekly/fortnightly, so no time for the bacterial mulm you see in the main filter, to accumulate.

I haven't had what I would describe as problems with mulm or detritus

That's possibly because your under gravel filter it drawing it all into the substrate, where the microbes break it down - it's likely doing more than you think. You also don't appear to have much in the way of fast growing stems either, which are often the main causes of organic build-up in a high tech tank as they will be in @eminor 's tank if he's going Dutch style.

 

[eminor]

It's all from the tank - it's the pre-filter I'm talking about, not the main filter itself - they get washed out thoroughly weekly/fortnightly, so no time for the bacterial mulm you see in the main filter, to accumulate.



That's possibly because your under gravel filter it drawing it all into the substrate, where the microbes break it down - it's likely doing more than you think. You also don't appear to have much in the way of fast growing stems either, which are often the main causes of organic build-up in a high tech tank as they will be in @eminor 's tank if he's goping Dutch style.

If there is a lot of organic in my dutch tank, the plant biomass is huge, plants will normally eat it ? or maybe bacteria need to break it down first ?

 

[Wookii]

If there is a lot of organic in my dutch tank, the plant biomass is huge, plants will normally eat it ? or maybe bacteria need to break it down first ?

I'm not sure to be honest. Some dissolved organics will be broken down and absorbed by plants, though I'm not sure that happens as quickly as they are generated, hence the need for decent sized water changes. @dw1305 might be able to advise.

Solid organics will taken a lot longer, and will likely need to be manually removed, again via siphoning during water changes.

 

[Andy Pierce]

It's all from the tank - it's the pre-filter I'm talking about, not the main filter itself - they get washed out thoroughly weekly/fortnightly, so no time for the bacterial mulm you see in the main filter, to accumulate.

Oh interesting! That's not what I would have expected at all. Is it usual to run a pre-filter with a main filter?

That's possibly because your under gravel filter it drawing it all into the substrate, where the microbes break it down - it's likely doing more than you think.

Ordinarily I don't like to give Oase too much credit for the design of the BiOrb series but it is a possibility.

You also don't appear to have much in the way of fast growing stems either, which are often the main causes of organic build-up in a high tech tank

This is true. I used to have some quick stems (Ludwigia palustris and before that Hygrophila polysperma which was a beast) but in general have gone away from those because I find all the trimming and replanting to keep them fresh looking a bit of a hassle.

 

[Wookii]

Oh interesting! That's not what I would have expected at all. Is it usual to run a pre-filter with a main filter?

Well the Oase Biomater filters and Aquel Ultramax filters have them built in, but I think many people running canisters will run a prefilter such as a simple sponge over the intake in tank, or something more fancy like the Ehiem: EHEIM Vorfilter - its an economy of effort thing - you either have a small easily accessible pre-filter to clean every week or two, and clean you main filter 6 monthly or so, or you have no prefilter and have to clean the main filter a lot more regularly.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It's all from the tank - it's the pre-filter I'm talking about, not the main filter itself - they get washed out thoroughly weekly/fortnightly, so no time for the bacterial mulm you see in the main filter, to accumulate.

<"Same for me">.

or maybe bacteria need to break it down first ?

Usually you get a <"shredder"> (like shrimps, snails or <"Asellus">) that physically breaks up the dead leaves and then microbial and fungal activity removes most of the nutrient that is left.

Is it usual to run a pre-filter with a main filter?

I run a pre-filter on all my tanks, either as the <"filter for the canister intake"> or as <"the complete filter">. The reason is that I just want <"water and dissolved solids and gases"> in the filter body. I want <"all the mechanical filtration"> done <"before the water enters the filter">.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

That's possibly because your under gravel filter it drawing it all into the substrate, where the microbes break it down - it's likely doing more than you think.

Yes, but microbes do not need it to be drawn into the substrate. They go where the 'food' is.

Some dissolved organics will be broken down and absorbed by plants, though I'm not sure

The possibility that higher plants take up organic compounds is seriously discussed and studied. Still, with the exception of urea, we may safely assume plants do not take up organics and are fed solely by mineral compounds.
That is in contrast to algae. Indeed, some respected researchers suggest considering algae mixotrophs (i.e. fed both by organic and mineral stuff). The reason has probably something to do with the fact that algae - like microbes - exude extracellular enzymes to break down substances prior their uptake through cellular membrane. Or something like that.

 

[eminor]

Without filter, bacteria will go mainly in the soil right ? i think, i've read a post of @dw1305 about that long ago

Due to the porous and size of filter media, there is no way that a filterless tank match the colony size of a tank with a canister right ?

Yes, but microbes do not need it to be drawn into the substrate. They go where the 'food' is.

The possibility that higher plants take up organic compounds is seriously discussed and studied. Still, with the exception of urea, we may safely assume plants do not take up organics and are fed solely by mineral compounds.
That is in contrast to algae. Indeed, some respected researchers suggest considering algae mixotrophs (i.e. fed both by organic and mineral stuff). The reason has probably something to do with the fact that algae - like microbes - exude extracellular enzymes to break down substances prior their uptake through cellular membrane. Or something like that.

So i better increase maintenance to avoid build up

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but microbes do not need it to be drawn into the substrate. They go where the 'food' is.

Same for me, back to the <"all day buffet">. I just think <"that evolution"> has had plenty of time to have <"polished"> the <"microbial & invertebrate assembly">.

Due to the porous and size of filter media, there is no way that a filterless tank match the colony size of a tank with a canister right ?

I think the answer is probably dependent on the <"total amount of dissolved oxygen">. What a filter will do (including <"Hamburg Matten Filter"> (HMF), sponge & powerhead etc) is ensure that <"oxygen rich water"> is swept through a <"matrix with adhering microbes">.

<"Kaldnes"> have made a filter media (for waste water treatment) that includes <"refuges for slightly larger organisms">. We are going to have these refuges (and zones of <"fluctuating REDOX">) naturally in the rhizosphere <"and mulm layer"> (if we have one).

<"Dissolved Oxygen is the the parameter"> that is most likely to control the <"extent and composition of the microbial assemblage">. This is the "activated sludge" process in sewage treatment, there isn't a filter media (you get "microbial flocs") but there is a <"lot of flow"> and a lot of oxygen.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

Due to the porous and size of filter media, there is no way that a filterless tank match the colony size of a tank with a canister right ?

Have a look here . You can see nitrifying bacteria performed so intense nitrification in tank A that they cause a decrease of pH down to 4.34 within six days. Nitrification is acidifying the water. - And where is a filter with porous media there? None whatsoever.
Like @dw1305 says - microbes are seldom limited by colonization area. What they need is oxygen.
Why so many hobbyists speak about colonization area and not about oxygen? Oxygen sales poorly. But colonization area is a well-selling good. Just like filters, miraculous substrates, and many 'necessary' products for our hobby.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Why so many hobbyists speak about colonization area and not about oxygen? Oxygen sales poorly. But colonization area is a well-selling good. Just like filters, miraculous substrates, and many 'necessary' products for our hobby.

Same for me, <"no money to be made"> from <"oxygen, plants & time">.

cheers Darrel

 

[eminor]

All the things that i've read on the internet or listened from vendors was pure bullshit, i guess i go to the right direction then =)

It make sense for me since it's the oldest form of life, the strongest i suppose

 

[Happi]

Hello, what would happen if i run a tank with co2, high light and only a strong powerhead, is it possible ? thx

this is how my tank has always been setup, I rarely use any media and i use filter or pump only for the flow. if you are worried about the beneficial bacteria? don't worry because most of it is active inside the aquarium. filter with heavy filter media mainly oxidize several nutrients such as Fe, Mn etc. plus I don't see the reason when plants are doing much better job at removing everything where filter/Media can only do so much.

 

[eminor]

this is how my tank has always been setup, I rarely use any media and i use filter or pump only for the flow. if you are worried about the beneficial bacteria? don't worry because most of it is active inside the aquarium. filter with heavy filter media mainly oxidize several nutrients such as Fe, Mn etc. plus I don't see the reason when plants are doing much better job at removing everything where filter/Media can only do so much.

Does that mean that micro nutrients stay longer available for the plants if there are no filter ?

 

[_Maq_]

Does that mean that micro nutrients stay longer available for the plants if there are no filter ?

Very likely so.
Theory and scientific papers say following: Iron creates precipitates (oxides or hydroxides) in contact with water, and with phosphates and carbonates. That is why dosing iron is often problematic. However, if you let these (hydr)oxides fall down to the substrate, nothing is lost forever. Microbes a plants' roots can dissolve them. The more so in deeper zones with lower redox.
But that's not the whole story. These (hydr)oxides and iron phosphates have strong adsorption capacity for some elements, namely manganese, copper, zinc, nickel, and again - for iron and phosphates. So they create microscopic flocs flowing in the water column. Until they are caught by filter, because filters are full of organic matter and these aggregates like to adsorb on organic matter (detritus). There are bacteria within the filter, so they would release part of the elements for their own consumption. But there's always some remaining matter which contains these elements and don't dissolve because filters are supposed to be well-oxygenated.
On the other hand, if these flocs/aggregates fall into the substrate, bacteria + plants' roots + lower redox will make them dissolve, sooner or later. Living organisms will never let a nutrient to get lost forever. That is, unless you create a trap for these nutrients (i.e. a filter) and periodically dispose of them (by cleaning the filter).
If you're using canister filters, you may notice brownish "mud" on the bottom or brownish colouration of sponges which is difficult to wash. That is iron - with all the other elements named above.
Of course, none of us has an equipment which would be required to prove it and deliver reliable measurements. So, frankly speaking, it is a guess. But it is well grounded in general chemistry and richly documented to happen (and being very important) in natural waters.