• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

How do you know when your FE is running out?

AverageWhiteBloke

AverageWhiteBloke

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2009
Messages
2,906
Location
Cumbria
Had some strange problems the last couple of days, following on from this http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=18545 I bought a new reg and atom diffuser from AE. Everything worked ok for a day then got home to find no co2 coming out the diffuser. I turned it up and co2 started coming out again.

This morning before I left for work I switched it on just to check it was ok rather than finding it hadn't worked when I got home and there was a little burst of bubbles in the bubble counter then it stopped working. :( When I stripped it down I noticed there was a bit of moisture coming out from the inlet side of the solenoid. :wideyed: I put this down to possibly two things, 1. While the reg had been knocked off for a few days some water may have run back from the tank into it or 2.I have heard that some FE's when nearly empty can dump co2 fluid out.

I stripped it down and tried to eliminate problems one at a time using a glass diffuser as opposed the atomiser. Firstly reg to glass diffuser worked no problem. Then I threw the solenoid on and worked no problem. Tried with bubble counter worked no problem. Tried the atomiser on and it stopped working.

My question is when a FE is nearly empty would it still give you a blast as mine did with everything off, would it possibly still show 65bar working pressure on the reg gauge and would the higher pressure required by atom diffusers cause enough back pressure for a nearly empty FE to stop working?

I have used atom diffusers with both these reg for months without any problems but as this is the first FE that has possibly ran out I'm not sure whether I have a problem here or simply a FE running on dregs can't handle an atom diffuser which may be the reason for the moisture in the solenoid and it working with a glass diffuser.
 
Working pressure at 65bar? Crikey it should explode lol. Think you meant bottle pressure mate ;0). If the bottles running low the bottle pressure guage will have dropped a bit. Water coming From the solanoid doesn't sound good though. Do you use check valves before the bubble counter? It could also be that the fire extinguisher could be faulty if it's your first one. A glass diffuser will work easier than anything as it needs no where near the pressure the inlines need.
Does the reg have adjustable working pressure? I know those diffusers can sometimes need s good 2.5 bar to work and take a few days to get set properly. I used to run the internal atomiser and found that the working pressure had to be at nearly 3 bar it it would start working then stop, and after a day or two the pressure dropped slightly but the diffuser seemed to work within about ten minutes rather than nearly half an hour
 
Working pressure at 65bar? Crikey it should explode lol
Click to expand...
Yeah that should have been bottle pressure :D Thanks for pointing out my fundamental error of not having a non-return valve between the solenoid and the bubble counter, mine is after the bubble counter preventing drain back. I never considered it coming back from the bubble counter itself I will rectify this tonight. It may well have came into the solenoid from the actual b counter itself while I was waiting on my new reg being delivered. :wideyed:

The reg is a tmc v2 from AE, It doesn't have a working pressure gauge on and the needle valve is a bit all or nothing. Richard (AE) assured me my atomiser would be fine with this reg. The atomiser is an in tank one as opposed inline in the filter. It now makes me wonder if my first set of gauges are actually faulty as well now :?

Do FE's have anything in their workings that will cut it out if there is any sort of back pressure?
 
When I used the In tank atomiser, the minute the solanoid turned off I could see the water travelling backwards towards the solanoid so that's why I popped a non return before the bubble counter. Didn't fancy ruining my regs with water.

If the tmc is no adjustable, what working pressure is it set to then mate? Mine never worked very well unless it was 2 bar or more, and also I purchased high pressure co2 tubing as it wouldbt work with the standard stuff.

Regarding the fe, I couldn't honestly say, I would have thought so though being used for what they should be.

Edit: I've just re read and didn't realise you'd said it doesn't have a working pressure guage. In that case it could possibly be the reg itself then mate, as you don't know what it's set to and if it has set working pressure, it could be set to slightly different than an identical one.
 
This goes from strange to bizarre, just got in my co2 was running but seemed to be going a bit fast bubble rate wise so tried to turn it down. Now I can't seem to knock the FE off only close down the needle valve completely which means if I take the gauge off the FE will keep giving off co2 :woot: Also my solenoid wasn't working when I unplugged it no clicking noises. I have switched off the FE for now and took off the solenoid, again water came out of it which I have blew through and it seems to be clicking again, is there anyway of making sure the solenoid is completely dried out before Switching back on and THIS TIME putting a non-return valve between it and the bubble counter?

I have tried to find the WP of the reg but I'm busy trying to sort my disaster out at the moment, Richard at AE did say it worked with atom diffusers no problem. I guess he knows his stuff and will be well aware that the diffuser needs 2bar+ so I'm guessing it is pre-set at something in that region. I found this first search viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17878 which convinced me to get one of these in the first place but they are a slightly different model to the ones I have.

Can't work out why the FE won't switch off though, is it dumping its contents has anyone came across this before. I have tried levering the trigger mechanism up on the FE but tbh I think its far enough up to be off.
 
If the handles up in the fire extinguisher then it should cut the co2 supply straight away. The fire extinguisher wouldn't stop of the solenoid has stopped working, as it's obviously gotten stuck in the open position so wouldbt shut the supply off it will just keep running until the cylinder is closed.
I'd put the solenoid intop of a tea towel that's on top of a radiator so the heat dries it out properly. Then to curb your curiosity take the cylinder and reg outside and slowly unscrew the reg, just a little. If it starts to hiss and continues to then your fe hasn't shut off. If it hisses for two or 3 seconds then stops that's normal and it was down to the solenoid mate.

Hope this helps a bit more.
 
Thanks for staying with me on this one Alistair :) It would appear that the FE was knocking off I just grossly underestimated the time it would take to clear the pressure from the gauges. I have dried out the solenoid best I can blowing it through and as you say on the rad. I have put a a valve in between the sol and the b counter but it wasn't up to the job. It split and water came out back pressured from the b counter so all your advice seems to be the case. It looks like the b counter water was syphoning back into the sol and stopping it working. Once the water is out and blew through the sol works again. I have another valve between the diffuser and the b counter which seems to be handling these pressures better so I'm just putting that between the BC and Sol as well as clear co2 pipe so I can see if any water is trying to get back to the sol when it gets switched off. My other tubing was green.
If I see any signs of water trying to get back I'm just going back to the glass diffuser, the atomiser is very good for fine mist but the higher pressures are a PITA unless I have some better valves. I have a few cheap LFS ones more really just to stop syhpon back pressure for air stones rather than these pressures.
 
That would be appreciated mate let me know the score with it :clap: Phew what a couple of days this has been :crazy:
I guess tomorrow will be the true test if every things working ok. I'll switch it on in the morning and see if its all right. Nothing worse than getting in from work late to find a problem.

I managed to get hold of a FE from work today just in case it was that and I threw the old gauges on it but they still aren't working. I was hoping I had a spare set there seemed too much of a coincidence that both should do the same thing. I guess I must have wrecked them when I turned the WP past its safe limits. I notice that the pressure gauge needle won't go back down even when they're disconnected from the bottles if that's a clue but I can't complain I've probably had them over 10 years.

I have to say I'm not too keen on these new gauges they seem a bit all or nothing, it does say precision but considering you can turn the needle valve full rotations about 5 times it seems the sweet spot is a mil in off totally shut. :D

Hopefully my next set up which is coming soon I can get all the things I've learned with this tank and get a decent set up going rather than a hodge podge of cheaply sourced bits.
 
I read and read and asked questions and read some more before I purchased any co2 equipment. Didn't want to go making mistakes in the beginning and end up with a tank full of algae through my co2 being incorrect. The stuck guage definitely sounds broken. If you eventually get a new set up I'll pm youns link to a reg that's perfect and engineered by ze Germans. Awesome bit of kit mate. Very precise. Never had any problem with mine from the min it went on. I read up on them and they are very highly recomended.

Hope the co2 is sorted tomorrow mate
 
I don't think it is mate. after I got out of shower the co2 had gone off with the timer and been off for about 3/4 hour, just out of curiosity I switched it on nothing coming through the bubble counter even with the gas turned right up. When you said yours sometimes didn't start up for 20 mins did you mean actually diffusing or bubbles going through the counter?

This ones beyond me, the solenoid could clearly be heard clicking this time as well. I took off the bubble counter there which immediately fired the water out ( should have took the diffuser off first) :D and replaced it with the glass one. I can only try in the morning hopefully it will work might even give it a little blast before I hit the sack.

To me through process of elimination it feels like either the solenoid(possibly done some damage with water going in) although even though my set up was as you pointed out in the wrong order I have run it like this for approx 3 month with no problems. Or the co2 bottle itself but in either case the problem comes up while the system is under pressure and knocked off it fails to restart. Once the pressure is released from the system there are no problems. If I don't get any issues while using the glassware then whatever is causing the problem is related to using the higher pressure I guess :?

Seems like the solenoid works, the diffuser works, there's gas in the bottle, the reg can handle the pressure, put them all together and its fine, leave it off for a while and won't start again until the system is de-pressurised. HHmmm I'm sure there's a clue in there somewhere!
 
Yes mate, mine used to take that long before bubbles cane out of the diffuser. Upon the solenoid first switching on, I'd get a burst of bubbles in the bubble counter which would rapidly slow to a stop, them a minute or two after I'd see a few teeny bubbles coming out of the difuser. As soon as the pressure was enough to push through the ceramic part and get lots of bubbles then the bubble counter started off as normal for the rest of the day.

Your whole problem here to me sounds like the reg doesn't have anywhere near enough pressure to push the co2 through that diffuser. It's clearly shown that by using a glass diffuser and being fine. And I can't imagine a pre set regs working pressure being set to anymore that 1.9. And that wasn't enough to get mine started originally. Fair enough once the diffuser had gotten going it was ok to lower the pressure but then when ever it started back up it took ages to start off again.

I also know this because mike on here aka Westy tried my internal super diffuser with his reg which was factory set at 1.9, the diffuser worked for a few seconds then stopped and the bubble counter did too, it was only when the reg was manually adjusted to 2.5 bat that after a short while it started working properly and did so ther after until the diffuser started throwing out big bubbles through the seals going but that's another story.
 
Bedtime update :) tried to switch on with the glass diffuser nothing came out again. So throigh process of elimination tried another FE on there and the same thing nothing. I thought even though the sol was clicking could possibly be not opening but it is. I took either end out and made sure everyhting was dry which it was. Puit it back together switch it on I can blow through it off I can't. Put everything back together it works switch it off by the sol won't come back on.
Next thing I thought I'd try was if it is failing to open the sol when the system is under pressure would it do it when there was no back pressure on it and each time I switched on and off without it being piped to anything gas came out. And on that bomb shell :) this has me totally stumped , everything works until you join them all together. I still feel like the sol is not opening if there is any resistance from the opposite direction which is born out by gas escaping when not connected to out. For instance not sure what 2bar feels like but should I be able to hold it back with just my thumb? I could do it no problem if that has bearing.

Edit. just tried holding the pressure back from the pipe before the sol and could do that so rules back pressure out.
 
Does the reg run an atomiser manually without the sol. Yes
That leaves two possible answers I guess. Get another sol and check with AE to see if for some strange reason when the needle valve is open is there anything in the reg that would stop it working but I'm guessing no. The only other thing that sticks in my mind was when I got home tonight and the sol seemed to be stuck in the on position, I would have definitely said it was that but it clearly works when not linked in to the rest of the set up. Nightmate if I got one and was no difference. I'm alreay sixty quid down and no further forward :( time for lights down and reach for the easy carbo I think :) unless I just set the injection rate low in the morning tomorow and leave it 24\7
 
I've emailed Richard at AE just waiting on a reply. I came across this but it may be a different reg to mine http://www.reefsafe.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9151 I'm praying not. The only thing I can think of is that either there is an issue with my solenoid which I have no way of testing it without sending it to someone with a different reg and seeing if it works on their system. I could I suppose buy a new one but without know if its the reg that's just throwing good money after bad.

The only other option would be I suppose if this reg had something built into it where if the valves open but it's getting back pressure it cuts out, a bit like a flash back eliminator on welding gear. I sincerely hope not!

Very disappointing, I could have bought a reg for a hell of a lot cheaper and was intending to but I opted for what I thought was a fit for purpose one in the UK to get delivered quicker as I was going to work away. The Irony being I didn't have to go away and could have waited until a different reg came.

You live and you learn! (expensively) The problem is I don't really have an argument with any of the kit because each individual item is doing its job. Only when I connect them all together do I have a problem.
 
Just found my answer in the strangest of places :rolleyes: In bold writing on the instructions that came with the regulator.....
"The V2 Pressure Regulator cannot be used in conjunction with a solenoid valve."

Great ! :thumbdown:
 
Check your pm's mate, I find it very unusual that it wouldn't work with a solenoid. So unusual that I never thought to ask! But that's what the instructions clearly say that came with it. If anyone has used one of these with one I'd like to hear how.
Not sure if the solenoid is a bit flaky or not. This morning I switched it off and on a few times and heard no click, re-tracing my steps there was also the other night when it was stuck in the on position. My best guess is that while my co2 was off water may have been coming back from the bubble counter into the solenoid causing an intermittent fault :?
But with the instructions clearly saying that it does'nt work with them is the tail wagging the dog? Between a rock and a hard place.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Richard at AE is checking with TMC, he has sold a few of these and no one has flagged up it not working with a solenoid before but he has seen the warning in the instructions.

Fingers crossed there is a solution.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top