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How to allow for natural Nitrate?

Joined
27 Oct 2009
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2,906
Location
Cumbria
I have been fine tuning my dosing as I'm trying the approach of dosing what it needs a day rather than more than it needs and empty the rest out with a water change. I started of with pmdd+po4 at the top end of the scale and gradually worked backwards a ml at a time while watching for deficiencies and KNo3 tests weekly before the water change. My Kno3 readings at the end of the week are quite high although they are coming down. I'm just a bit concerned that with only testing for the kno3 that taking into account the natural addition through fish waste my kno3 may be ok but not the phos and mag sulph.
How much kno3 will a medium stocked tank add to tank by itself? I know its the how long a piece of string syndrome with other things like filters and feeding to factor in just a rough idea would do.
 
AverageWhiteBloke said:
I have been fine tuning my dosing as I'm trying the approach of dosing what it needs a day rather than more than it needs and empty the rest out with a water change.
The success of this philosophy depends entirely on your motive. I don't even really know what fine tuning means. What are you trying to accomplish with this and why would you care if you have more nutrients than you need? I'm not just being argumentative here, I'm trying to probe your mind in order to address the nature of your concern. Did you realize, for example that a higher concentration nutrient level forces a higher uptake rate? Lowering the dosing will therefore lower the uptake rate. In nutrient dosing schemes the tail can actually wag the dog.

AverageWhiteBloke said:
... and KNo3 tests weekly before the water change. My Kno3 readings at the end of the week are quite high although they are coming down.
This is where we part ways. No hobby grade NO3 test kit can tell you the truth on a consistent enough basis to regulate your dosing strategy with. You'll not find the answers to your questions in the little vial. I promise you.

AverageWhiteBloke said:
I'm just a bit concerned that with only testing for the kno3 that taking into account the natural addition through fish waste my kno3 may be ok but not the phos and mag sulph.
How much kno3 will a medium stocked tank add to tank by itself? I know its the how long a piece of string syndrome with other things like filters and feeding to factor in just a rough idea would do.
The question is even worse than the string question. Ask yourself this question; How much food should you eat?

Cheers,
 
Did you realize, for example that a higher concentration nutrient level forces a higher uptake rate?
No I did not :wideyed: thanks for that I was always under the impression that as long as there was enough ferts the plants would just use what they needed, I never realised that having higher levels encourages them to take up more so that's another pearl :)
I hear what your saying about test kits which I never really take the value of for granted other than hardness ones are pretty accurate. Kno3 I test just to see the presence of rather than how much there is same as ph I just make sure its at least acidic.
I spend a lot of time in this community reading posts and I'm often pointed in the water chemistry direction so without test kits I'm blind to how changes affect my growth. Looking at the plants is the best indicator but I often wonder why sometimes things are thriving and sometimes not so maybe there is a link with the water chemistry at that point. I know for instance that my Crypts grew better and had a darker brown leaf when I raised my KH a bit from the no KH that comes out of my tap, this I wouldn't have realised without testing with a kit.

By fine tuning I mean that as I have seen posted in this board I have started at the top of the dosing scale and gradually reduced this down while watching for deficiences, my tank is quite low lit so I can probably come down a lot from the reco dosages that appear on fert mix sites which are generally for a bright lit tank with lots of plants, also I work away a lot so my water change is whenever I can which is the reason I don't dose E.I . Sometimes my tank has to go three week without a change although that's not often.

What are you trying to accomplish with this and why would you care if you have more nutrients than you need
I've always been from the school of just because the fish can handle high nitrates doesn't mean you should, I have Shrimp in there and some breeding Rams. Just seems that as low as my dosing is my KNO3 is always up about 80mgl but as test kits aren't your bag that probably doesn't interest you :D Just wondered whether it was my dosing or natural cause that was giving the high levels. If its me then I should be ok but if not then theres chance I'm low on phosphate.

Cheers
 
Hi,
The more plants get fed the more they uptake and the more waste they produce. This then requires more water changes to keep the tank clean and to keep both plants and fish healthy. In this sense fine tuning is better associated with lowering the maintenance requirements. Lower dosing also means lower cost, so fine tuning has an economic component. I agree therefore (and often suggest) that a reduction from the baseline dosing numbers while watching for deficiencies is a good thing to do if maintenance requirements and economics are important. HOWEVER, I absolutely and positively have never suggested that anyone use delusional test kits to determine this reduction from baseline. Of all test kits on this planet, NO3 test kits are THE most delusional and despicable.

The proper technique for dosage reduction is to drop some arbitrary percentage level, such as 10% and wait 3 weeks, then to continue this pattern until you start to see the beginnings of deficiency. This automatically takes into account the Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (DON), so there is no reason whatsoever to waste more time and money looking at a lie. Your tank is your NO3 test kit. When you start to see yellowing of leaves or BGA then you know that you don't have enough NO3 and that you should revert to at least the previous dosing level. You do not need to know what ppm this is because the ppm of NO3 that causes deficiency varies considerably from one tank to the next, and even varies considerably in the same tank based on plant biomass, flow/distribution, lighting fish stocking level, maintenance practices and CO2 injection technique. Therefore, knowing a ppm number for this tank this week is completely meaningless because it tells you nothing about the past or the future and cannot be used as a frame of reference for any other tank, or for the same tank at any other time. The measured value is completely meaningless and irrelevant. Once you understand this at a fundamental level you will realize that knowing ppm numbers does not help you to grow better plants.

You also need to be systematic in your approach to interpreting your observations. There are many factors and variables in the tank. You cannot conclude that an arbitrary KH value necessarily grows crypts better than some other arbitrary number without further corroboration, even though it might actually be true, it is not a logical conclusion because we do not know what other variable changes occurred with your change to higher KH water. To verify your conclusion you now must use, for example low KH water for your water changes while keeping all other parameters the same (as much as possible) and see if the crypts revert to their previous behaviour of paler colours and less vigorous growth. If you draw a conclusion about some environmental factor's effect on plant growth then you need to be able to show specific cause and effect and it must be demonstrable as well as repeatable. What you observed could all too easily be a coincidence. There could have been something else that you did to the tank to generate the change in physiology which accompanied the colour and growth changes. Very few people perform this rigorous procedure. They make a variety of changes to the tank and arbitrarily attribute the effects to only one of the variables. Again, I'm not doubting your conclusion - what you observe may very well be true, but you have to be able to prove it because otherwise you will only be generating another myth, and there are far too many myths around as it is.

Cheers,
 
Thank you for a clear understandable reply, since joining this board bga is a thing of the past I have used info from here and yourself to keep parameters as close to the sweet spot and stable as possible. Injection rates, lights both duration and intensity and dosing in three week test periods. I drew the crypt conclusion when I got some Amano shrimp and started to raise the kh to 3 to suit them, as they improved when I lowered dosing assumed that less ferts would not be the reason the kh possibly was granted with so many other factors to take into account was probably not a good one. I thought I'd found out something about plants on my own for once :D Bit of a Eureka moment.
 
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