Invert safe wormer?

Discussion in 'Inverts' started by ulster exile, 28 Jan 2008.

  1. ulster exile

    ulster exile Member

    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Can anybody recommend one? I was just about to get Wormer Plus then realised that it says that it is not safe with inverts. I can't really treat the fish separately as I don't have a large enough tank to do it in and would imagine that trying to catch all of my fish to move them and treat would be a very stressful business and so may be counter-productive.

    Have had Preis Coly recommended to me, but it seems to really target internal and gill parasites whereas wormer plus targets internal and external (ie not just gill) parasites. Fish are presenting with shrunken bellies despite eating and are flicking so I want to treat internal as well as external.
     
  2. If a wormer can get to the internal parasites, would that not mean it's a systemic treatment? Shouldn't it then get externals too? :?

    Just thinking aloud, might be wrong there

    Tom
     
  3. JamesC

    JamesC Member

    Messages:
    1,276
    Location:
    Bexley, Kent
    I've used Flubenol 15 in the past, but it does kill snails. Seemed perfectly safe with my shrimp.

    James
     
  4. Dan Crawford

    Dan Crawford Founder Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,266
    Location:
    Daventry, Northants
    Flubenol from me too. I was happy about it killing snails but i know some wouldn't be. It was fine with the plants too.
     
  5. ulster exile

    ulster exile Member

    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    The old Flubenol isn't the same as the new - I think there was some change in regs which meant that the Flubenol15 that everybody was buying a year and a half ago isn't the same as what is being marketed now. The old killed snails, but was reputed to be 'safe' at least for some inverts (although I don't think it said this on the packet). The 'new' wormer plus replaced the old and only contains 5% Flubenazol (or whatever it is) but the blurb on the website says that it is not safe for inverts.
     
  6. JamesC

    JamesC Member

    Messages:
    1,276
    Location:
    Bexley, Kent
    I didn't know that. I used it a few years ago now so I supposed I used the old one. What's the website for the wormerplus? Paul Fox will know more about it I'm sure.

    EDIT: Just looked for it. Seems as though Flubenol has vanished. Even Paul's website is no longer.

    James
     
  7. ulster exile

    ulster exile Member

    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Hi James, most of my info is indirectly from Paul - he was the one who posted about Flubenol15 (having 15% of the flubendazol instead of the 5% the new wormer plus has) not killing amano's to his knowledge, with the caveat that he didn't know about the long term impact of it's use, or it's effect on other inverts.

    I haven't noticed him around much and I know he no longer sells the stuff himself since a license was needed to manufacture the stuff, so I have resisted the urge to ask him about it directly so far since I imagine he probably gets tons of emails about it, but I guess I might have to.

    The website of the wormer plus is (this appears to be a sideline of the Plymouth Discus business incidentally).

    I really don't mind about the snails all dying, apart from the ammonia spike this may cause, I just don't want my shrimp to be affected.
     
  8. fishgeek

    fishgeek Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    west sussex
    flubendazol, whether you buy it under any trade name does the same thing, and i think kusuri also manufacture it
    wormer plus and flubenol 15 were i think manufactured by the same .. not certain.. paul just sold it

    the claims about 15% flubendazol being better than other strengths are to my mind not logical,,, a drug works in a particular fashion, pharmocydynamics, the dose needed for thos e desired actions to occur can be acheived with a 5% , a 15% or whatever starting concentrate

    think your fertiliser and the mixing of stock solutions.. that is what dosing is all about, using a certain amount of product to achieve an end concentration in water

    flubendazol is benzimidazol antihelminthic, this is it's family of drugs(also levamisol and fenbendazol(trade name panacur)) and it is most primarily used against nematodes

    i know there are many aquatic claims of it's usage against treamtode- fluke and even some against protozoa ... though i am uncertain how substantiated these are.. i have found no scientific support

    it works through mechanism not fully understood, microtubular energy transport within cells

    most intestinal wormers of mamals and or poultry, which is exactly where this has been derived , are poorly absorbed through digestive tracts as they work on local parasites and although given orally are not found in systemic quantites

    the few studies of oral usage of flubendazol against flukes of rainbow trout found it ineffective.. maybe because of poor absortion and non intestinal parasite?

    i have seen studies that list fenbendazol and flubendazol as txic to daphnia, as an aquatic inveterbrate that would make me assume it would also be the case for shrimp ? incorrect? i dont know and i am not willing to try with my shrimp

    can you medicate food, or do you want external effects aswell?


    can you do faecal microscopy so you know what exactly you want to treat?

    andrew
     
  9. ulster exile

    ulster exile Member

    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Wow, post and a half! Thank you for that.

    I don't have the equipment, or the necessary knowledge :oops: to do a faecal examination. I do want to treat externally, as well as internally since the occasional 'flicking' behaviour indicates there may be an external problem as well.

    You obviously know what you're talking about (whereas I clearly don't :? ) and your response makes me less inclined to use the wormer plus at least. However, the only other treatment I have found states that "ensures the elimination of gill and intestinal parasites and worms" and is harmless for inverts (their words). To me, their description of what it does, indicates that it will not treat externally really, apart from the gills.
     
  10. Aqua Essentials

    Aqua Essentials Sponsor Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,384
    Location:
    Devon
    This is what I was told by the distributor:

    The old Wormer plus wasn't regulated which meant other products were added to it to 'bulk it up'. Also, there was no set measurements - they mentioned half a teaspoon or something like that for dosage per X litres of water. The problem was what exactly is half a teaspoon? Is that heaped, flat etc etc.

    The New Wormer plus is controlled and precise with nothing to bulk it out. It comes with a measuring spoon which gives you exact dosage (you don't heap it either). This makes is all around safer.


    I hope this helps
     
  11. ulster exile

    ulster exile Member

    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    It does help, thank you, although I have ordered the Preis coly stuff.

    Panic buying at it's worst I think - found another pencilfish dead this morning with a shrunken belly so felt I had to do something.

    Thanks
     

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