I have a little 3 year old echinodorus purple aflame; the colour is good very dark purple but for 2 3/4 a year it has only been around 1 inch high. Very recently (like 4 weeks ago) it grew to 2 inches! How long will it take to get to three inches? As for new leaf growth i should count them - i think it has 6 or 7 now; usually what happens is it will have a fix number but the minute one gets damage (ok maybe not minute but certainly within days) it will grow a replacement but until an existing leaf gets damage it doesn't really put out new leaves. Is there much i can do to encourage another inch out of this plant ? I'll try to post a picture tomorrow.
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is echinodorus purple aflame hard to grow?
- Thread starter anewbie
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hypnogogia
Member
Can you provide a bot more information about your set up? Lighting, fertilisation regime, substrate, water changes etc.
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Yeah you need to provide more info else it will be difficult. All I can say is that if it's growing that slow something ain't right. I've had that plant in the past and if memory serves me well it grew a good 15/20cm tall in a few month time. At that time I was growing them in a mid-high tech tank without larding too much on light/co2/ferts. You can look in the OP of my journal in the version 2 of my tank. The difference in size is just a few month apart, maybe 4 or 5.
The tank has inert substrate; is a 40B (16 inches high); has a wrgb 2 on it (not turned up all the way; but i think par is around 100 at the substrate); i started it from a culture; over the years it has gotten various types of fertlizer but recently i feed it an api root tab once a month and the tank gets api liquid fertlizer per bottle dosage once a week and a 1/8 teaspoon of phosphate every 3rd water change. The tank gets 50 to 60% water change once a week. My base water is kh 3 gh 7 tds 120; temp during winter is 75-76 during summer 79-81; water has no nitrate. Tank is well stocked and nitrate level runs around 15. Need more details ?
hypnogogia
Member
Looks to me like it's not getting enough food. Inert substrate and no nitrate in your water column (if that's accurate - how did you determine that?)
Well i used an api liquid test kit; and i keep nitrate below 20 in all my tanks as nitrate is very bad for fishes.
This is a bad picture of the little fellow - lights just came on so the tank is a bit dim - can take a better one later when lights are full if needed:
hypnogogia
Member
Not so. Many on here feed 30ppm per week of Nitrate with no ill effects on fish. 30ppm is the EI dose which you can read about on other threads on this forum. As to measuring Nitrates, whilst I don't understand the chemistry involved, test kits are very unreliable when it comes to Nitrate testing.
I'd suggest upping your fertilisers and aiming for the following per week.
NO3 - 30ppm
PO4 - 5ppm
K - 30ppm
Also, don't forget micros - iron etc.
I do dose nilogc iron once a week (4 pumps). There is a difference between dosage level and level in the water; also there was some recent research that shows nitrate level above 15 or 20 has a long term negative impact on fishes (this is sa fishes that are used to fairly clean water).
Hi all,
If you haven't <"added NO3"> (either via a salt or in your tap water) it is the <"smoking gun"> of previous high levels of TAN (ammonia/ammonium (NH3 / NH4+)) and nitrite (NO2-) and they really are toxic at very low levels. @Edvet, who posted on some of the threads, really is a vet.
I look at it another way and I use the leaf colour and health of a floating plant as a proxy for nitrogen level (<"The scientific background to the "Leaf Colour Chart"">), it works pretty well as long <"as none of the other essential nutrients is limiting plant growth">.
<"Floating plants, in particular">, and plants generally, are very efficient at depleting fixed nitrogen levels. I want plants in active growth, because they are the single factor that has the <"largest effect on maintaining water quality">.
cheers Darrel
When you add nitrate (NO3-) from a salt like potassium nitrate (KNO3), the <"nitrate ion itself isn't toxic to fish"> until you get to quite high levels. Have a look at <"Nitrate tests?"> for a bit more discussion and some references.
If you haven't <"added NO3"> (either via a salt or in your tap water) it is the <"smoking gun"> of previous high levels of TAN (ammonia/ammonium (NH3 / NH4+)) and nitrite (NO2-) and they really are toxic at very low levels. @Edvet, who posted on some of the threads, really is a vet.
I'd agree to some degree, we don't know at what level nitrate becomes a problem for a lot of ornamental fish. I've kept / keep <"Apistogramma">, <"Corydoras"> etc. and, personally, I try and keep nutrient levels down, but it is still the same problem of differentiating between NO3- as the product of ammonia oxidation and that from direct addition. The only real way of doing it is to use <"nitrogen isotope labelled ammonia">, and even labs. have struggled with this.
I look at it another way and I use the leaf colour and health of a floating plant as a proxy for nitrogen level (<"The scientific background to the "Leaf Colour Chart"">), it works pretty well as long <"as none of the other essential nutrients is limiting plant growth">.
<"Floating plants, in particular">, and plants generally, are very efficient at depleting fixed nitrogen levels. I want plants in active growth, because they are the single factor that has the <"largest effect on maintaining water quality">.
cheers Darrel
I'm having a bit of a problem following this - after i have a time to read through all the links i will comment further. I will note that i'm dosing liquid fertilizers and root tabs. Also i'm a bit surprise the plant in question would care that much bout the water column i would think the primary concern would be around what is put into the substrate around the root system.
Hi all,
*<"https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.31.1_supplement.lb277">.
cheers Darrel
Basically we don't know how toxic the nitrate (NO3-) ion is, because we only have values from a few studies where nitrate has been added from a salt. <"This study">* used sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and the Zebra (Danio) fish (Danio rerio).
*<"https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.31.1_supplement.lb277">.
All plants can only take up nutrients as ions, charged particles in solution, and they can absorb them through <"both their roots and leaves">. Roots <"alter the substrate conditions within their rhizosphere"> (<"rhizosphere of aquatic plants is a habitat for cable bacteria">) to help with the acquisition of nutrients, but there isn't any clear division between "root feeders" and "leaf feeders", despite what you may read elsewhere.
cheers Darrel
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I still need to go back and read some of the links but two quick questions - if i am using liquid (i am currently using api but could switch) and not salts (i.e, el dosing); should i increase the amount i use and conversely could i increase the amount of root tabs i put around the plant and would that be sufficient ?
Hi all,
I'm <"too mean (cheap) to buy liquid fertilisers">, so I don't have much experience with them. I don't actually <"add a set amount of fertiliser">. I rely on <"visual clues of when to add nutrients">.
cheers Darrel
If <"API liquid fertiliser"> is on the <"IFC calculator">? (@Zeus. or @Hanuman) then you could find out how many ppm of NO3 a standard dose adds. I'm going to guess it isn't very much (or none at all?)
I'm <"too mean (cheap) to buy liquid fertilisers">, so I don't have much experience with them. I don't actually <"add a set amount of fertiliser">. I rely on <"visual clues of when to add nutrients">.
I'm not personally a root tab fan. I have <"DIY my own in the past">, but I'd keep away <"from Osmocote etc"> and now I just dose the water column. It is lot easier and a lot easier to control the level of nutrients you've added.
cheers Darrel
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MichaelJ
Member
Right. Leaf Zone contains just Potassium (K) and Iron (Fe).... and of course just water! ...
For a so-called complete fertilizer there are indeed good options such as TNC Complete, ATP Complete/3, Tropica Specialized. Of course in the long run they are expensive to use especially for a big planted high-tech tank.
Cheers,
Michael
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Is there a table that shows how you mix your own and how long does it last once disolved into a liquid. I.e, I can easily buy the salts but how much do i mix with water of each one and can i leave it in a container and then add it to the tank as needed and if so how much do i add to the tank? Also going back to my purple aflame that is the only plant that is growing sufficiently slow to be troublesome. The ha'ra and various nurii crypts are all going bang busters (tank has been up for around 28 monhts); i realize that is probably the only true 'difficult' to grow plant - i do have blyxa novo and 'red'; both grow fairly fast but the novo is green in my tank (in the seller it was a deep orange we could not figure out why it is orange in his tank and green in mine - i've had it over a year and it grows well enough just stays green). I don't think there is anything else that is diffiuclit to grow but my various anubia do get a bit of algae.
PARAGUAY
Member
You could use APFUK formula as a starting point ,in 500ml of cooled boiled water 6teaspoons of magnesium sulphate, 1 tsp of Potassium Nitrate and 4 tsp of Potassium Nitrate and chelated trace powder 1tsp in 500ml .used on alternate days. Starting 10ml per 50litres in high energy CO2 aquarium
How good is that stuff in liquid form (i mean how long could it last); could i mix 10 liter and have it last 5 years or will the chemicals break down over time ?
PARAGUAY
Member
The main thing is to store the liquid in a dark cool place. Dry salts wont be an issue if kept dry. Most l ever make in liquid form is enough to last a couple of weeks. I have read of issues with micros chelated trace. dw1305 and Hanuman will have help for you.
You said it.
It's not a good idea to prepare very concentrated solutions in order to keep them long term. It's preferable to prepare 2, max 3 month worth. Mine usually lasts 3 months or so but I am extremely careful when preparing my ferts (boiling the water, cleaning all with bleach etc) and even then all this might seem futile because at the end we are adding dry salts which are not sterile and can contain patogens. I know it's tempting to have a truck load of fert so you don't have to think about it anymore, but I don't recommend it. You could always prepare a lot and freeze what you don't need and then unfreeze when you need more. This is the only way I see of preparing big batches.
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Zeus.
Fertz Meister
NilocG Thrive have a great range of AIO ferts which give the cheapest way to fertilise you plants over any other commercial AIO ferts, plus you can get it in the USA which is a bonus.
Large batches of DIY ferts has its issues and I would strongly advise against it, unless you freeze it as Hanuman has already mentioned.
API leaf zone has no data sheets so we don't even have an idea of what levels of potassium or iron it has. So it wasn't added to the IFC Calculator.
@anewbie what size is your tank? if 100litres or less a commercial AIO doesn't work out too expensive esp with a product like 'NilocG Thrive' the larger the tank the cost can soon run away. Very large tanks are best dosed with dry salts IMO
Large batches of DIY ferts has its issues and I would strongly advise against it, unless you freeze it as Hanuman has already mentioned.
API leaf zone has no data sheets so we don't even have an idea of what levels of potassium or iron it has. So it wasn't added to the IFC Calculator.
@anewbie what size is your tank? if 100litres or less a commercial AIO doesn't work out too expensive esp with a product like 'NilocG Thrive' the larger the tank the cost can soon run away. Very large tanks are best dosed with dry salts IMO
