• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Is it possible?

No water changes on the tank in the video? I was expecting a lightly stocked tank, but that's a lot of angelfish and the vibe of that aquarium is decidedly not "no maintenance".

My impression is that the consensus is that denitrification isn't really possible in home aquaria, but I'm sure someone else can elaborate.

...is this guy selling something?
 
ElleDee said:
No water changes on the tank in the video? I was expecting a lightly stocked tank, but that's a lot of angelfish and the vibe of that aquarium is decidedly not "no maintenance".

My impression is that the consensus is that denitrification isn't really possible in home aquaria, but I'm sure someone else can elaborate.

...is this guy selling something?
Click to expand...
Nope he is not selling.
According to him there was no water change for last 13 years, just strict maintenance. He makes his owen ferts and root tabs. The aquarium volume is 1800 liters
 
1800 litres would certainly make it easier to reduce the water changes but 13 years feels like you would eventually get a build up of something you don’t want.

The bacteria that converts ammonium and nitrite to nitrogen double their population incredibly slowly (a couple of weeks for some types) and I think are only stable in very specific situations (PH usually is basic I think). I’ve seen sludge setups on wastewater treatment plants where the anaerobic bacteria lives and it’s stinky stuff. I think to have that sort of set up in an aquarium would be impractical?

There’s lots of smart people on here who will be able to explain it soon though I’m sure.
 
Hi all,
nijat11 said:
The aquarium volume is 1800 liters
Click to expand...
That would make life easier. If you did lots of plant thinning and syphoning (I can't see any mulm etc.) then the "no water changes" would become more feasible, particularly with topping up to counter evaporation. Also the filtration might be relevant, if any-one know what it is? I've seen <"Vertical Flow Constructed Wetlands"> that have continued to function over ~10 years without maintenance, although in that case it isn't the same water.
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
The bacteria that converts ammonium and nitrite to nitrogen double their population incredibly slowly (a couple of weeks for some types) and I think are only stable in very specific situations (PH usually is basic I think).
Click to expand...
I don't think that is as much of an issue. <"Science has moved on">, basically anywhere there is <"fixed nitrogen"> there will be microbes that can utilise it.
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
I’ve seen sludge setups on wastewater treatment plants where the anaerobic bacteria lives and it’s stinky stuff.
Click to expand...
I agree, I think everyone should visit a <"sewage works">, <anaerobic digester> or <"landfill"> at least once.

cheers Darrel
 
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
The bacteria that converts ammonium and nitrite to nitrogen double their population incredibly slowly (a couple of weeks for some types)
Click to expand...
You're talking on some specific strains of bacteria, but denitrification is in fact ubiquitous and very many microbes can perform it.
 
_Maq_ said:
You're talking on some specific strains of bacteria, but denitrification is in fact ubiquitous and very many microbes can perform it.
Click to expand...
I’m sure you’re right. The sludge treatment process I’m aware of (used in wastewater treatment works in the UK) uses deoxygenated water which really stinks and relies on these slow reproducing bacteria. Wouldn’t want that anywhere near my home aquarium. At 1800 litres though, he probably has room for some industrial scale filtration!
 
A possible method that can be used to remove nitrate fully is with an algae turf scrubber. I built one of these when I was reef keeping and it was really effective at reducing nitrates to near zero. With enough size and bright enough lights it could be very effective. No requirement for denitrifying bacteria.

Still, going back to the original question, I’m not convinced 13 years without water changes is healthy.

EDIT: Forgot about organic carbon dosing. I used to add vodka to the tank to feed this bacteria which (in theory) could live in Seachem Matrix in a slow flowing area of the sump. I’ll be honest, I have no idea if it worked though as I didn’t do it for long before closing down the reef and can’t remember much about it.

DOUBLE EDIT: Now I think about it, I might be confusing two processes as I think the organic carbon dosing required the skimmer to remove the newly created organics. It’s probably bed time.
 
Last edited:
Hi all,
_Maq_ said:
You're talking on some specific strains of bacteria, but denitrification is in fact ubiquitous and very many microbes can perform it.
Click to expand...
That is the one, once we had the genetic sequences for denitrification we found that facultative and obligate denitrifiers were pretty much universal
Home Autotrophic Microbiology and One-Carbon Metabolism Chapter
Denitrification by Obligate and Facultative Autotrophs
Lesley A. Robertson & J. Gijs Kuenen Part of the Advances in Autotrophic Microbiology and One-Carbon Metabolism book series (AMOC,volume 1)
<"Denitrification by Obligate and Facultative Autotrophs">
Abstract
Denitrification is the use of nitrate, nitrite or the other nitrogen oxides as terminal electron acceptors in bacterial respiration. The end product is generally N2, although a few species appear to terminate at N2O ...... Some organisms can only convert nitrate to nitrite, a process known as nitrate respiration, although many (e.g. Escherichia coli and Proteus mirablis) can then reduce the nitrite to ammonia ... this last process is generally termed dissimilatory nitrate reduction in order to distinguish it from denitrification, where nitrogen is actually lost.
Click to expand...
I'll be honest, I would have been amazed if the situation hadn't been much more diverse than the traditional view was. It is back to the argument in the <"one-legged Irishman"> post.
<"5.9B: Nitrate Reduction and Denitrification">.
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
The sludge treatment process I’m aware of (used in wastewater treatment works in the UK) uses deoxygenated water which really stinks and relies on these slow reproducing bacteria
Click to expand...
They try and enclose it now, partially to reduce the odour issue and partially to harvest the methane (CH4). This is the anaerobic digester at a local Cheese factory (<"Wyke Farms">).

This is the ANAMMOX process. <"Anammox | SSWM - Find tools for sustainable sanitation and water management!">. A lot of the newer wastewater treatment combines aerobic nitrification with anaerobic denitrification, with a temporal or spatial separation between the processes.<"Detritus in the aquarium">

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:
"To Change Water, or Not to Change Water. That is the Question". :)
 
dw1305 said:
I'm a fanatical water change. I'm convinced that regular water changes have health benefits for both fish and plants, but I'm not entirely sure why.
Click to expand...
Thanks Darrel - interesting threads! I did notice the above comment from you (over a decade ago! Wow!) so wondered if you ever really settled on the why its important?
 
I can't see anywhere where he explains what his routine is. I would say it's technically possible, but doesn't mean he necessarily does what you imagine 'no water changes' to mean. For example - you could take your tank water run it through RO system, remineralise and pop it back in the tank the other end.... technically the same water right? Haven't changed any! Looks like he has a whole fish room setup - so maybe more complicated that just one tank that only receives top ups.
 
tam said:
I can't see anywhere where he explains what his routine is. I would say it's technically possible, but doesn't mean he necessarily does what you imagine 'no water changes' to mean. For example - you could take your tank water run it through RO system, remineralise and pop it back in the tank the other end.... technically the same water right? Haven't changed any! Looks like he has a whole fish room setup - so maybe more complicated that just one tank that only receives top ups.
Click to expand...
Yes he mentioned top ups and some gravel vacuuming
 
nijat11 said:
some gravel vacuuming
Click to expand...

That was my thought too - the tanks look very well maintained with very clean substrate - and with fish like that, there won't be any shrimp in there to do the job.

Assuming he disposes of the waste water from vacuuming - on a tank that size, that's going to be a decent sized water change just doing that - and fairly frequently with large messy fish.
 
Hi all,
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
A possible method that can be used to remove nitrate fully is with an algae turf scrubber. I built one of these when I was reef keeping and it was really effective at reducing nitrates to near zero. With enough size and bright enough lights it could be very effective. No requirement for denitrifying bacteria.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is just back to the <"advantages of plants">.

Reef keepers use algal scrubbers mainly because there are <"very few marine angiosperms">. Synergistic "plant / microbe" nitrification is potentially about <"an order of magnitude more efficient"> than "microbe only" nitrification - <"The nitrifying microbes in aquariums and cycling">. There isn't any "plant only"> nitrification, any plant surface will become rapidly colonised by microbes and plant roots (particularly) have a <"very complicated relationship with their environment"> where they can alter the rhizosphere to encourage a beneficial microbial flora.

Plant / microbe phytoremediation is actually quite a hot topic at the moment - <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) phytoremediation references">. This research has been driven largely by the DNA revolution, scientists can sample systems for the genes for ammonia oxidation etc. and find out if they came from Archaea or Bacteria.
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
I used to add vodka to the tank to feed this bacteria which (in theory) could live in Seachem Matrix in a slow flowing area of the sump. I’ll be honest, I have no idea if it worked though as I didn’t do it for long before closing down the reef and can’t remember much about it.
Click to expand...
The vodka (ethanol (C2H6O)) is just a <"pure carbon source">, its advantages over most other carbon sources (acetic or citric acid) is that it is readily available and isn't an acid or particularly toxic (like methanol (CH3OH). I assume it works, but lack of DOC isn't a problem we have.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
Also the filtration might be relevant, if any-one know what it is?
Click to expand...
The substrate seems to get vacuumed through a canister filter which then re circulates the water back into the tank. The main filtration apparently is a 4 chamber affair, integrated inside the tank. He also runs/ran 2x eheim 2217 filters for extra flow and filtration.
He also mentions running a 1 micron filtration line in combination with purigen.

He's a member of an open group on FB dedicated to Hydra filters, hydroxyl radicals get lots of mentions on his videos in this group.
Erik also seems to make his own filter media including some weird looking denitrifying gel 🤷

Maybe his technique works, maybe its quackery? Either way it looks rather intensive and I'd imagine if somebody is thinking "not doing water changes" is an easy option they might be in for a rude awakening. Lol.

FB group.
facebook.com

Nieuwe Aquarium Generatie (NAG) | Facebook

Hallo, wij zijn een groep die open staat voor nieuwe dingen, zoals de nieuwe filtertechnieken met HYDRA of PURIGEN, verlichtingstechnieken, en andere waterbehandelingsmethodes. Waar we elkaar...
facebook.com facebook.com

Maintenance vid showing re circulating gravel vac.
 
John q said:
He also mentions running a 1 micron filtration line in combination with purigen.
Click to expand...

1 micron?! That must clog in about a nanosecond!

That issue aside, it's an interesting concept - if you could theoretically run the water through a 1 micron filter (or even a full HMA filter), you would essentially be cleaning the water pretty well.

That said:

John q said:
Maybe his technique works, maybe its quackery? Either way it looks rather intensive and I'd imagine if somebody is thinking "not doing water changes" is an easy option they might be in for a rude awakening. Lol.
Click to expand...

Exactly, setting up some automated daily/drip water changes on a tank like that makes far more sense, and is far and away the least labour intensive option.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top