Jungle flex 57L

[Davey]

@Davey For Fe DTPA you could use the ready made TNC Iron TNC IronAT | The Nutrient Company
I have a 60 litre tank, and find this lasts me a long time.
For FeEDDHA I bought this Iron Plus B . As it's a powder and we have small tanks, you will need to make it up into a liquid, and then dose it into the tank. With the amount you get, it would literally last you years and years . They have a powder FE DTPA as well. Bioly were a bit slow to deliver to me, but it got to me eventually.

Keith

Hi Keith @keef321
Thank you for your input!
I was going to buy iron plus a, FeDTPA from bioly via eBay. I didn't fancy the pink hue with FeEDDHA. Do you see any benefit of plus b over plus a?
Also please share your mixing/dosing/water change routine.

Many thanks
Dave

 

[_Maq_]

major cause of agricultural pollution

This is too much of a sad topic for my guts. Farmers' lobby is a monster.
As a boy, fifty years ago, I was in beetles. I can remember, routinely encountering various species in the fields back then, species which are rare nowadays and non-existent in many large regions. And that, that was during that awful Communist rule with its disregard for environment (as well as people's well-being, after all).

 

[Davey]

After a small amount of reading, I'll be going for the FeDDHA as I like the idea of the pink tint telling me I've put enough in. @keef321 and @dw1305 your conversation thread was useful, as well as your calculations.
Looking forward to receiving the solufeed and iron and begin the ferting process.
Cheers

 

[Happi]

suggested recipe based on your request. For reference #88
something similar was offered to #50 @Richardod based on his water (similar to yours) report #47 but am not sure which recipe he went with. hopefully he could report back and this could be a huge help for you as he has been dosing it for a while now.

Edit: Soon as you get your desired chemicals, we will work on your recipe and calculate them accurately.

 

[Davey]

Hi @Happi

I have ordered the following:

0.5 gram potassium sorbate

Classikool Potassium Sorbate Preservative E202 for Wine Fermentation Stopper etc | eBay

Classikool Potassium Sorbate (E202) is the best grade you can get. Use this item as an hair conditioner and on my skin. Will buy again.". (Review for Classikool Coconut Oil). - " I LOVE your products.

www.ebay.co.uk

9.82 gram DTPA Fe 11%

Iron Plus A

High performance soluble additive containing 11% Iron and DTPA Chelating agents. Very stable in more Acidic systems (pH 2 - 7) Can be mixed directly into Hydroponic or Aquaponic system or applied as a foliar spray Safe for fish and plants

bioly.uk

1.71 gram EDDHA Fe 7%

Iron Plus B

High performance soluble additive containing 7% Iron and EDDHA chelating agents Very stable in more Basic systems (pH 4 - 9) Can be mixed directly into Hydroponic or Aquaponics system water or applied as a foliar spray Safe for fish and plants

bioly.uk

4.61 gram Mn EDTA 13%

Mn 13% EDTA Chelated Organic Manganese Planted Aquarium Fish Tank Fertiliser EI | eBay

Mn 13% EDTA Chelated 50g. It is also necessary in the process of oxygen production during photosynthesis. Organic form of Manganese for aquarium use. Symptoms usually are noticeable in the leaves located in the lower and middle parts of the plant.

www.ebay.co.uk

1.28 gram Zn EDTA 14% - They claim this is 15%

Zn 15% EDTA Chelated Organic Zinc Planted Aquarium Fish Tank Fertiliser EI | eBay

Zn 15% EDTA Chelated 50g. Organic form of Zinc for aquarium use. Zinc deficiency. Browse All. We will do the best to dispatch the parcel ASAP. Inhibition of plants’ growth, decreased size of leaves.

www.ebay.co.uk

40.11 gram K2SO4

K Plus

High performance Potassium Additive for Hydroponic, Aquaponic and soil based plants to treat potassium deficiency. Very stable at a pH of 6 upwards Safe for fish and plants Can be mixed directly into Hydroponic or Aquaponic system or applied as a foliar spray

bioly.uk

magnesium sulphate

Magnesium Sulphate 250g | eBay

Magnesium sulfate is the first-line antiarrhythmic agent for Torsades de pointes in cardiac arrest under the 2005 ECC guidelines as well as managing Quinidine-induced arrythmias. As a bronchodilator after beta-agonist and anticholinergic agents have been tried, e.g. in severe exacerbations of...

www.ebay.co.uk

I did not go for the sodium free stuff from solufeed as all of those individual big boxes would have been too expensive and bulky. Are there any other bits we will need? Eg sodium free TEC?

Cheers
Dave

 

[_Maq_]

I have ordered the following:

Nice stuff, but I believe that chelated elements except iron are fairly unnecessary.

 

[Davey]

Nice stuff, but I believe that chelated elements except iron are fairly unnecessary.

Ah, I'm following happi's recipe. I suppose we can choose not to dose them if they prove to be useless.
Do you say this because they're in the wrong form or because I have sufficient amounts according to my water report?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Farmers' lobby is a monster.

It is. That was an issue <"I always had with the EU.">, the <"CAP"> took 75% of the budget at one point and <"still makes up 33% - 42%">.

In the UK the farming vote is irrelevant, farmers and farm workers are less than 2% of the electorate and we have "first past the post" in our elections, but in Europe there are many "hobby" farmers and their votes count.

Because UK farms were already large and efficient the only effect the CAP had was that it made large farmers disproportionately wealthy and there was very little <"trickle down effect"> occurred for <"rural communities"> (I grew up in that one).

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

Ah, I'm following happi's recipe. I suppose we can choose not to dose them if they prove to be useless.
Do you say this because they're in the wrong form or because I have sufficient amounts according to my water report?

Nothing wrong, stay calm.
It's just after studying the chemistry of those elements, and after applying that knowledge in my practice, it truly seems that we may or may not need chelated iron, but we can live happily without chelated manganese, zinc, copper, and nickel. Simple salts (chlorides, sulfates) will do the same job.
The practical advantage is that without chelates, stock solutions are very stable - no need to labour with acids and stabilizers and fungicides and all that stuff. Another difference is the price...

 

[Davey]

Nothing wrong, stay calm.
It's just after studying the chemistry of those elements, and after applying that knowledge in my practice, it truly seems that we may or may not need chelated iron, but we can live happily without chelated manganese, zinc, copper, and nickel. Simple salts (chlorides, sulfates) will do the same job.
The practical advantage is that without chelates, stock solutions are very stable - no need to labour with acids and stabilizers and fungicides and all that stuff. Another difference is the price...

It'll be worth making the same fert without those once they run out to see if there is a difference.

On another note I'm not convinced there is that much nitrate in my tap water. Every water test I've done on my tank runs 0ppm. I do have ceramic and countered glass media in the filter, should I replace these with sponges?

 

[_Maq_]

On another note I'm not convinced there is that much nitrate in my tap water. Every water test I've done on my tank runs 0ppm. I do have ceramic and countered glass media in the filter, should I replace these with sponges?

Firstly - filters normally do NOT remove nitrates. They may or may not help nitrification, which is a microbial process during which toxic ammonia is converted into non-toxic nitrates.
Secondly - see my signature: I don't use any filters. All the biofiltration is running within the tank itself, mostly in the substrate. But that's my opinion, a bit eccentric. Most hobbyists still run filters in their tanks, but prevailing opinion is that all that stuff with extremely large colonization area benefits only the vendors. You will hardly find any source which could demonstrate that some filter media work better than others.
Just keep the water moving and well oxygenated.

 

[keef321]

Hi Keith @keef321
Thank you for your input!
I was going to buy iron plus a, FeDTPA from bioly via eBay. I didn't fancy the pink hue with FeEDDHA. Do you see any benefit of plus b over plus a?
Also please share your mixing/dosing/water change routine.

Many thanks
Dave

I am still experimenting myself with the best iron mix. As I had very bad Fe deficiencies, I started with DTPA only at first, and this made great improvements, but I would still got issues. I then added Flourish Iron, that showed more improvements, and finally EDDHA. My Frogbit has greened up the most with the mix of all three. I now also have some of the best greens in the tank so far, but some of this could be from improving Co2 flow. From my experience, I dont see any benefits (my mind my change with experience) dosing higher than 1ppm Fe of correctly chelated iron (I ignore any amount of EDTA that may already be present) that is suitable for your water/PH, but I do get benefits by mixing the different Fe chelates. I am still experimenting myself with Iron dosing. I currently dose 0.5ppm DTPA, 0.5ppm Seachem Iron & 0.03ppm EDDHA. More can be found about this, and others experiences in this thread Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment .

In regards to how I dose / mix the EDDHA, this can be found here How to mix FeEDDHA

My water change schedule is as follows:
I dose to full EI levels using an All-in-One (TNC Complete), and carry out 75-80% water change per week.
I have found it best to dose my Iron on separate days to my All-in-one fertiliser (or for yourself perhaps dose on different days to your Macros) , and to dose when my lights come on, as I know that at this point the PH has dropped enough, to give the plants the best chance of uptaking the Iron.
So for me I do the following:
Sunday 75% Water Change - then dose iron (I find the plants can store sufficient amount of other nutrients, but they dont like to go without iron for very long, literally days, therefore I need to put it straight back into the water).
Monday - dose all in one / Macros
Tuesday - dose iron
Wednesday - dose all in one / Macros
Thursday - dose iron
Friday - dose all in one
Saturday - rest day

If I do another mid-week water change etc, due to algae issues etc, I would then add back some iron.

Keith

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm not convinced there is that much nitrate in my tap water. Every water test I've done on my tank runs 0ppm

The first thing to say is that plants <"are very efficient at depleting nitrate (NO3-)">, much <"more efficient than most aquarists realise">, so it is possible that you have no measurable NO3- in the tank.

The other problem <"is with the test kits">.

What does your tap water say? Because the max. , mean and min. values are similar for your water report you should get somewhere in the region of 30 (ppm) mg/L from your water test.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Firstly - filters normally do NOT remove nitrates.

<"They don't">, and if they did? It would be a very bad thing indeed.

but prevailing opinion is that all that stuff with extremely large colonization area benefits only the vendors. You will hardly find any source which could demonstrate that some filter media work better than others.

Yes, it is all <"smoke and mirrors"> by <"the various vendors"> of <"Biohome"> etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[Malarky]

Just keep the water moving and well oxygenated.

Do you use a bubbler (timed?) or simply rely on pumped surface agitation for exchange of gases?

 

[Davey]

Hi all,

The first thing to say is that plants <"are very efficient at depleting nitrate (NO3-)">, much <"more efficient than most aquarists realise">, so it is possible that you have no measurable NO3- in the tank.

The other problem <"is with the test kits">.

What does your tap water say? Because the max. , mean and min. values are similar for your water report you should get somewhere in the region of 30 (ppm) mg/L from your water test.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel

I've tested my tap water with the API master test kit and it gives me a 0ppm reading. I must admit, I am rather frustrated; inaccurate water report or test kit or both!

If I can't rely on the report then what good is a fertilizer tailored to the water report.

Makes me think that perhaps the best method is just to go with pink water and duck weed index as they cannot lie?

I shouldn't be complaining to be fair, I've had little to no melting of plants and good growth so far. I've put the lighting up an extra hour to try and grow some biofilm/algae for the arrival of cherry shrimp (whenever that is). Importantly, no algae so far, although I know it is a matter of time. The glass looks a little hazy today. I used filter media and some substrate from the previous Scape so I believe the cycle was never disrupted.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My Frogbit has greened up the most with the mix of all three. I now also have some of the best greens in the tank so far, but some of this could be from improving Co2 flow.

Access to atmospheric CO2 was the main reason for using a floating plant for the "Duckweed Index".

Any green, submerged plant should show the same deficiency symptoms, but you have the <"extra confounding"> <"factors of CO2 (and light) availability">.

Not long ago a random guy over facebook was convinced that these were naturally red. I thought rather than waste time explaining, I would take a picture, so I went outside of my house, took some floaters from one of the ponds which is high in nitrate and added them to another pond which is low in NO3.

I'm seriously considering having another go with Red-root Floater (Phyllanthus fluitans) <"in a mix with Amazon Frogbit"> (Limnobium laevigatum)

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

inaccurate water report or test kit or both!

It won't be an inaccurate water test by the water company. They have labs. with £ hundreds of thousands <"worth of analytical kit"> and scientists who know how to use it.

It is much more likely to be one of the reagents in the test kit, but it could be tap water from a different source. For example if you had a blended supply, and for some reason, 100% of it was now water from Haweswater etc.

.......... The pic shows an older API nitrate test bottle #2 that I cut open to have a look inside. I assume the silver-grey residue on the bottom is metallic Cd powder. It's loose - not caked. I taped the bottle closed, shook it vigorously, and found most of the powder in suspension when I reopened the bottle.

A bit of reading of "API nitrate test reviews" indicates that test results are technique-sensitive, which is probably the case with all hobby tests, and perhaps more-so with this one. I suspect that shaking of the final sample-reagent mixture for the time specified is probably more crucial than prolonged shaking of reagent bottle #2 before dispensing - as long as a surplus of Cd is dispensed for the test. I calculate the Cd equivalent of 40 ppm nitrate, e.g., in a 5-ml sample to be 0.36 mg........

So a vigorous shake might make a difference?

Makes me think that perhaps the best method is just to go with pink water and duck weed index as they cannot lie?

That was another of the <"reasons for developing"> the <"Duckweed Index">, you aren't reliant on test kits (or bacteria that you can't see), you just make your decisions <"based on what you can see">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

Hi @Happi

I have ordered the following:

0.5 gram potassium sorbate

Classikool Potassium Sorbate Preservative E202 for Wine Fermentation Stopper etc | eBay

Classikool Potassium Sorbate (E202) is the best grade you can get. Use this item as an hair conditioner and on my skin. Will buy again.". (Review for Classikool Coconut Oil). - " I LOVE your products.

www.ebay.co.uk

9.82 gram DTPA Fe 11%

Iron Plus A

High performance soluble additive containing 11% Iron and DTPA Chelating agents. Very stable in more Acidic systems (pH 2 - 7) Can be mixed directly into Hydroponic or Aquaponic system or applied as a foliar spray Safe for fish and plants

bioly.uk

1.71 gram EDDHA Fe 7%

Iron Plus B

High performance soluble additive containing 7% Iron and EDDHA chelating agents Very stable in more Basic systems (pH 4 - 9) Can be mixed directly into Hydroponic or Aquaponics system water or applied as a foliar spray Safe for fish and plants

bioly.uk

4.61 gram Mn EDTA 13%

Mn 13% EDTA Chelated Organic Manganese Planted Aquarium Fish Tank Fertiliser EI | eBay

Mn 13% EDTA Chelated 50g. It is also necessary in the process of oxygen production during photosynthesis. Organic form of Manganese for aquarium use. Symptoms usually are noticeable in the leaves located in the lower and middle parts of the plant.

www.ebay.co.uk

1.28 gram Zn EDTA 14% - They claim this is 15%

Zn 15% EDTA Chelated Organic Zinc Planted Aquarium Fish Tank Fertiliser EI | eBay

Zn 15% EDTA Chelated 50g. Organic form of Zinc for aquarium use. Zinc deficiency. Browse All. We will do the best to dispatch the parcel ASAP. Inhibition of plants’ growth, decreased size of leaves.

www.ebay.co.uk

40.11 gram K2SO4

K Plus

High performance Potassium Additive for Hydroponic, Aquaponic and soil based plants to treat potassium deficiency. Very stable at a pH of 6 upwards Safe for fish and plants Can be mixed directly into Hydroponic or Aquaponic system or applied as a foliar spray

bioly.uk

magnesium sulphate

Magnesium Sulphate 250g | eBay

Magnesium sulfate is the first-line antiarrhythmic agent for Torsades de pointes in cardiac arrest under the 2005 ECC guidelines as well as managing Quinidine-induced arrythmias. As a bronchodilator after beta-agonist and anticholinergic agents have been tried, e.g. in severe exacerbations of...

www.ebay.co.uk

I did not go for the sodium free stuff from solufeed as all of those individual big boxes would have been too expensive and bulky. Are there any other bits we will need? Eg sodium free TEC?

Cheers
Dave

This will do for now. You could also get the Solufeed Sodium Free TEC that was suggested, no need to get the other individual one because you already ordered the needed stuff.

Far as chelated and non chelated traces goes, I have used both with great success. I would still prefer to chelate the Fe and Mn in most cases especially when the water is hard.

 

[_Maq_]

Do you use a bubbler (timed?) or simply rely on pumped surface agitation for exchange of gases?

Venturi. Just a simple water pump with venturi. 24/7.
Disclaimer: There's some discussion on which method of oxygenating (stone bubbles, venturi, sprinkler tube, or just moving the surface) is most efficient. I've got no exact proof on this, really. I just happen to believe in venturi, as tiny bubbles wander through water column for relatively long time... But I may be wrong.