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L. glandulosa - help with crinkled leaves, please

George Farmer

George Farmer

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UKAPS Team
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30 Jun 2007
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Location
Cambridgeshire
This is a long-shot!

Has anyone else experienced crinkly leaves with Ludwigia glandulosa? The crinkled leaves are more prominent with the new growth. They're a deep red colour, but leaves are deformed, and unsightly.

I've also experienced it with Nesaea pedicellata and Alternanthera sp. before now.

They are all potentially red leaf stem plants.

I don't have any issues with any other species, including supposedly more demanding species.

I'm dosing 15ml TPN+ per day in a 160 litre with 4 x 24w T5, 30ppm CO2 and nutrient-rich substrate. Every other plant (13 other species) including very fast growers, are showing no signs of deficiency. I have no algae. Except for the crinkled Ludwigia leaves, everything is growing wonderfully.

I suspect it's nutrient related - perhaps a ratio of some sort. My water is hard - GH 14 or so. No idea of actual nutrient levels, but I'm sure I'm providing enough through the TPN+, substrate and CO2.

It's rather frustrating!
 
Hi mate,
Yes. Regret to inform this is a CO2 issue (you weren't expecting a different answer were you?)

This normally happens as the stem gains altitude (but can also happen with generally over-the-top lighting). When it is low to the sediment the lighting is lower and the CO2 demand is lower. As it rises, the incident PAR increases so that by the time it get near the surface it distorts because we cannot feed it enough CO2 to satisfy the demand. This happens with the more difficult Ludwigias, not with the easy ones. This phenomenon isLudwigia's equivalent of translucent tip ferns. Same story. Adding enough CO2 to combat this would annihilate all inhabitants, unless the intensity is reduced.

2367016030038170470S600x600Q85.jpg


Cheers,
 
Yes that would help. The only problem is that the crinkled leaves never seem to straighten out, but new leaves should grow out straight - if you add enough. Very annoying. :arghh:

Cheers,
 
No, it's never black or white with CO2. In the same way that Nitrogen shortages have different effects, different CO2 failure modes will show different symptoms. For example, certain N failure modes will cause chlorosis, right? While other N failure modes result in BGA. Still other modes result in only stunting. It depends on the other environmental conditions.

It could easily be for example that the plant is near the rate limit of Carbon fixation but that the speed of growth demands a faster allocation of Carbon to the assembly of the structure than can be achieved with that rate of Carbon fixation. This is a structural fault mode, not necessarily a food production fault. So this could easily be a speed/allocation issue, not necessarily a deficiency issue.

Think about all the different symptoms of CO2 failure. Not all of them are present at the same time. You could have browning, black spots, translucent tips, but no algae. you could have hair but no staghorn. You could have BBA but no melting. You could have no melting, no hair, no staghorn but yet have GSA. So the response to failure might even depend on the particular plant or even the particular specimen as well as how much light and flow there is.

Cheers,
 
Following ceg's advice on another topic on the same problem I dropped my lighting (from 4xt5 to 2xt5) and topped my CO2 not bps (still 3/s in my 100l tank) but I switched to a better glass diffuser (JBL Taifun P) and also improved the flow so the CO2 bubbles would stay more in my tank. I've also tweaked the ferts 'cause I realized that I was dosing too much for my plant needs so now I dose around quarter to half of an EI normal dose (trace once a week, and I dose daily JBL Ferropol 24). No liquid carbon dosing. I've also switched to RO water but that's not related to this.

The things are ok now, decent growth, no curly leaves, nice pearling (I've realized you don't need Klingonâ„¢ light levels for this :) ).

LE: Also switched the light schedule to 8 hours without any break (I think not using a break is a huge improvement on plant growth)
 
Thanks for your input, clonitza.
clonitza said:
I've also tweaked the ferts 'cause I realized that I was dosing too much for my plant needs so now I dose around quarter to half of an EI normal dose (trace once a week, and I dose daily JBL Ferropol 24).
Click to expand...
What influence do you think lowering nutrients has on crinkled leaves? I didn't think it was an issue providing more that the plants' nutrient requirement.
 
None, but it was a waste of money :lol:. I've tested and I was having N>40 and P>2 at the end of the week, now I'm around N-10 and P-0.5 I think, I don't use my test kits too much.

Anyway I told you a long story that could have been short: I've forgot to wash my filter's tubing, placed my powerhead wrong, used a small no-name co2 glass diffuser -> low flow -> co2 and nutrients not getting to all plants -> problems.

Now I'm benchmarking my flow with Mark's video's. :)

Cheers,
Mike
 
clonitza said:
None, but it was a waste of money :lol:. I've tested and I was having N>40 and P>2 at the end of the week, now I'm around N-10 and P-0.5 I think, I don't use my test kits too much.

Anyway I told you a long story that could have been short: I've forgot to wash my filter's tubing, placed my powerhead wrong, used a small no-name co2 glass diffuser -> low flow -> co2 and nutrients not getting to all plants -> problems.

Now I'm benchmarking my flow with Mark's video's. :)

Cheers,
Mike
Click to expand...
Cool.

Great flow is ideal, of course.

In this set-up there's 80% stem plants across 80% of the substrate, so it's more a case of balancing good circulation with not having the plants 'blown' horizontally. Also having enough light to grow the low plants that are naturally shaded by the tall, combined with CO2 high enough, but not too high to distress the fish. And then there's the pruning technique. And I'm only at home at weekends. It's certainly a challenge! :D

A nice low-maint Nature Aquarium next I think!
 
You could achieve that using a spray bar all over the back of your aquarium and trim the plants so they don't cover the flow and loose them a bit so you have some water circulation there.

On the other hand I've realized that the most challenging part of the planted tank hobby is to choose the right plants for your tank setup, not all thrive in the same conditions and we tend to mix them too much. We all need to know when to stop using all Tropica's catalog in the same tank. :lol:

Cheers,
Mike
 
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