Lean dosing pros and cons

[dw1305]

Hi all,

it's great to see that something like this can be pulled off and just goes to show that we still have a lot to learn and there are still many roads that lead to Rome.

My guess is that there are a series of <"sweet spots"> on the light ~ CO2 ~ nutrient continuum where you get successful plant growth, and it's the successful plant growth that matters.

I'd also guess that where those pigeon holes are is going to depend <"on the plants">, how <"plastic their response is to nutrients"> and <"their potential growth rates">.

Keep KH very low (0-1 range), pH low (below 6) and temperature low in order to optimize the available dissolved CO2.

I think all of those factors might be advantageous, dissolved gases and (most) nutrients <"would be more available">.

cheers Darrel

 

[plantnoobdude]

well, the thread I posted in the last page from plantedtank.net was deleted which is absolutely ridiculous. I am glad that ukaps is a much more open community willing try and accept new ideas. a shame we won't be able to see the thread develop, and respected plantedtank enthusiast greggz with thousands on thousands of comments on the forum was banned.....

 

[Hufsa]

What the heck?? What was wrong with the thread, and banning Greggz of all people? What happened?

 

[Happi]

Let's not focus too much on what happened over there at TPT. Let's try to focus on the main reason why this thread was made. Am trying to bring that guy over here so we can openly discuss about his achievements and hopefully he will share all his knowledge and skills.

 

[MichaelJ]

well, the thread I posted in the last page from plantedtank.net was deleted which is absolutely ridiculous. I am glad that ukaps is a much more open community willing try and accept new ideas. a shame we won't be able to see the thread develop, and respected plantedtank enthusiast greggz with thousands on thousands of comments on the forum was banned.....

I noticed that this morning. This just seems completely weird to me. I did not read the thread to the very, very end, so I cant tell if anyone or the OP caused a major controversy / argument etc. that would have called for a removal of the thread.

A related thread was started that may offer some additional insights.

I was able to siphon the best part of Sudipta's original post out of my browser cache

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Happi]

I was able to siphon the best part of Sudipta's original post out of my browser cache

Cheers,
Michael

Most people couldn't do so because they delete their history.

 

[Maf 2500]

Link to a google cache of the original post in question (hope this works!):
https://webcache.googleusercontent....-non-co2-supplemented-softwater-tank.1324061/
Looks like there is no cache of the related discussion

 

[Hufsa]

MVP @Maf 2500

 

[Happi]

Link to a google cache of the original post in question (hope this works!):
https://webcache.googleusercontent....-non-co2-supplemented-softwater-tank.1324061/
Looks like there is no cache of the related discussion

Such a smart guy

 

[JoshP12]

Nice tank.

He’s following all the rules regarding nutrient acquisition.

If Amano didn’t insist on running his tanks at 77f and he would go to 72f, the observances that “ADA doesn’t make hard plants look pretty” would be nill. He also didn’t bother with booster and just used tap water. He was building a system to market - KISS. And he did exactly that.

Notice a few things on the TPT thread:
1) his water is artificial 0KH 6GH <— we’ve been through this
2) rich substrate
3) good, over sized flow
4) high light
5) the fert has almost no N and P … and decent K

Lovely thread so far everyone - love this forum.

 

[Happi]

Remember what we talked about in this thread in the past? You can have high light and little co2 without algae and you can grow nice plants. In that guy case he is doing it even without adding co2. He is only relying on whatever co2 his tank provide him naturally.

Back to our old question:
Can you have high lights with low Co2 and low nutrients ? The answer is YES

If that guy was to add 10-15 ppm co2 on his setup, his plant will grow even better without changing anything else.

 

[MichaelJ]

Remember what we talked about in this thread in the past? You can have high light and little co2 without algae and you can grow nice plants. In that guy case he is doing it even without adding co2. He is only relying on whatever co2 his tank provide him naturally.

Hi @Happi I am a believer and I am eager to learn and understand how he accomplish this. I have had planted tanks (I never did CO2) in the past running them with "high light" and all eventually all turned miserable similar to what we see on a daily basis on this forum from fellow low-tech hobbyists struggling with algae and terrible plant health related to excessive light, lack of proper fertilization and maintenance etc. - and inconsistencies in general. I think there are lots of clues in the TPT post, but I think there is more, much more, to this. And quite honestly, I think there is shift in a lot of peoples thinking about this and what is possible - I mean, being able to accomplishing and keep high-tech plants at high light in a low-tech tank? Who wouldn't want to be able to do that?! I know your not rushing in @Happi, but we need a deep drill-down on how to accomplish this. With further understanding of the situation, I will be happy to volunteer going full bore down that route with one of my tanks which I am contemplating re-doing anyway.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Hanuman]

Can you have high lights with low Co2 and low nutrients ? The answer is YES

It's not just high light + low co2 + low nutrient = it works.

The answer is temperature and that is CRITICAL. As temperature rises, solubility decreases, hence more CO2 is required to maintain a saturation level. Drop temperature, CO2 solubility increases. To that add plant metabolism. Lower temperatures slows down plant metabolism, hence less CO2 requirements. Algae are also slowed down.

Only problem with this approach is that you need to keep that temperature fairly low and constant throughout the year. Unless you have a chiller or live somewhere where temperature is low and constant throughout the year, then forget it. It won't work. As soon as temperature rises, CO2 will be depleted much faster, plant will bump the rate at which they metabolize etc etc... we know the song.

This is something I see year after year here in Thailand. When peak summer arrives I need to increase my CO2 level. If I don't, I see plants not behaving right, more algae, cyano bacteria appearing etc. I don't have a chiller and don't want one but I know that's the missing link to my tank stability. Chillers are expensive, consume loads of electricity and blow hot air. Not something for the indors unless you have proper ventilation. In Thailand most people simply leave their airconditionning on anyways. 🙂

 

[MichaelJ]

It's not just high light + low co2 + low nutrient = it works.

The answer is temperature and that is CRITICAL. As temperature rises, solubility decreases, hence more CO2 is required to maintain a saturation level. Drop temperature, CO2 solubility increases. To that add plant metabolism. Lower temperatures slows down plant metabolism, hence less CO2 requirements. Algae are also slowed down.

I very much agree @Hanuman as pointed out. The big question is of course, what temperature range is ideal? will this also work at say 74F/23C? (I would think so...)The TPT poster mentioned 70 F (21 C) during the winter where he notice optimal plant health. 21C is on the very low end for a lot of livestock so that is obviously problematic unless your doing plants-only.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[erwin123]

The big question is of course, what temperature range is ideal?

Best Temperature?

Above: In cooler waters ( 22 to 26 C / 72 to 79 F ) Bucephalandra grow markedly better and mosses display richer, greener tones. Above 29 degrees Celsius / 84 F, most aquatic mosses tend to be more yellowish and melt more easily.Temperature plays a powerful, silent role in planted...

www.2hraquarist.com

I read somewhere that Green Aqua keeps their tanks at 22 degrees.

 

[Hanuman]

I very much agree @Hanuman as pointed out. The big question is of course, what temperature range is ideal? will this also work at say 74F/23C? (I would think so...)The TPT poster mentioned 70 F (21 C) during the winter where he notice optimal plant health. 21C is on the very low end for a lot of livestock so that is obviously problematic unless your doing plants-only.

Cheers,
Michael

I would guess that would depend on plants. I think @dw1305 could answer that question better. I think anywhere between 20C and 25C is a good range. And yes the other issue which I omitted was livestock. I didn't want to mention it because we were specifically talking about plants but if you have tropical fish some will not like such low temperatures (21C) all year round.

Thinking about chillers again, a fellow aquascaper gave me one last year as he switched to other hobbys. Well I sold the chiller. In any case, my tank temps here hoovers between 27-29C. I know that is the major problem but, I live with it.

 

[Happi]

What am trying to say is that even with colder water the gasses are more soluble but we keep on forgetting that the tank is running without the additional co2, only whatever is present naturally which won't be more than 10 ppm my best guess. So it is obviously clear that high light doesn't require high co2 or high nutrients and the tank is clear. The old advice would have been high light, add more co2 and more nutrients but that is not the case here. Not sure if I could explain it better than that.

Am on the same page as those guys, the only major difference is that my co2 is still running 15-20 ppm and the temperature is 76-78. I can probably drop it down to 72, but am not sure plant like Tonina would enjoy that.

And ofcource let's wait till we can dig deeper into it so we can all be more successful, we fairly understand what might be happening but let's explore it together to further understand it.

 

[Hanuman]

So it is obviously clear that high light doesn't require high co2 or high nutrients and the tank is clear. The old advice would have been high light, add more co2 and more nutrients but that is not the case here. Not sure if I could explain it better than that.

And what I a trying to say is that both advices are crooked if you don't factor/mention temperature as being a critical factor, which it is. For instance in your example, increase that temperature to 26 or above and the consequences will be dire if you keep that higher light + low fert + no CO2 regime. Also what exactly does high light mean here? So far to me that's pretty vague and highly subjective. It's like CO2 readings on a drop checker. A PAR value at substrate level for reference would probably be more informative and a good starting point. I don't know where you guys live, but here in Thailand and in my specific case, my tanks temps are year round around 27/30C. They never go below that. I don't have the sub 25C optimal temps so I am limited to increasing CO2 or decreasing light else things don't work. So to me that approach of low/no CO2+high light etc is not shocking to me as long as you can control all these variables year round.

Also, and this is very important in my opinion. I am always very worry/critical on peoples journals and what they decide to share. For two simple reasons.
1. Bias. No one is free from it and we don't know from the comfort of our chair, behind our screens what is happening with a specific tank 24/7, year round. And that is also why conversation on these subjects will keep on going forever. People share specific moments/periods of their tanks, not a continuous stream. Snapshots are great but don't provide the full story but obviously it's interesting to read and try to understand what is happening.
2. Most of us are not biologist, chemist or whatever related specialists. Not saying, us, commoners can't learn, but even those with the knowledge to understand most minute details don't always have the full answers.

This said, the great thing about UKAPS is that we do have a fair amount of specialists here which makes this forum the best in term of quality content, in my opinion. Far above and beyond any other forum in the same field. Plus I like English humor.

 

[Garuf]

I’ve been running my tanks seasonally for years now with 20c low and heaters set to 21c then in summer the tanks are unheated- I’ve noticed much longer lifespans for the species I keep - I started doing this because a guppy breeder told me “you burn the fish out” if you keep them at 25 all year round. I also notice “booms” in summer where I seem to get twice as much life/breeding.

This is just anecdote - but I suspect there’s a deeper truth I’m missing.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

that would depends on plants.

I'd guess that most of the plants we grow would be OK at 21 - 22 oC. This is partially because the companies that produce them in N. Europe are going to want to run their production facilities at the lowest temperature they can, because every degree above ambient temperature is an additional expense.

It is the equatorial <"turned up to eleven"> plants that will demand the highest temperatures and something like <"Ludwigia sedioides"> or <"Victoria amazonica"> is going to need temperatures above 25oC, along with reef intensity light. @Happi's Tonina spp. are also plants that are never going to experience cool water.

........but we keep on forgetting that the tank is running without the additional co2, only whatever is present naturally which won't be more than 10 ppm my best guess......

The natural level of CO2 in our tanks is a <"really interesting question">, the <"equilibrium value"> (at <"418 ppm atmospheric CO2"> and 20 oC) is about 0.6 ppm and "3 ppm" is often quoted, but the only reference we could find for this was <"George Booth's at the Krib">. I'm guessing that 3 ppm is nearer than 0.6 or 10 ppm, but it would be <"purely a guess">.

cheers Darrel