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Lean dosing pros and cons

Happi said:
the major problem with CSM+B is below:
View attachment 184362

when you take a spoon or whatever gram and mix it in the water, you are not 100% sure if you are adding more or less of several nutrients, look at this picture for example: if you took a spoon of CSM+B from the upper part, you will be adding more Copper, if you take a spoon from the lower part, it might be lacking copper. considering some of the nutrients that are needed in low ppm, you might be either missing those or they might not be present in the ppm that you should be getting.

I use to modify csm+b with Mnso4 and Fe DTPA, people who still want to use CSM+B should benefit from this : Perpetual Preservation System - Nutrient imbalance TE

also do consider that some seller do add Boron separately to CSM, how accurately they add them and mix them would be another question.
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Agree with above. What most don't understand is that CSM is meant to be mixed in vats with hundreds/thousands gallons of water and sprayed on crops. So the 1/8 or 1/16 tsp someone scoops out can vary wildly in it's composition. And then you have the added Boron which can also be a problem. If your scoop contains a large amount of Boron it can wreak some havoc on a tank. It's one of the micros that get toxic quickly in too high amounts.

If someone is using CSM+B, they can increase their odds of uniformity by creating a solution in a large container.

Many of us have been making our own micros for years. But I understand it's not for everyone. Much depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Like others have said, once you buy the ingredients you have a lifetime supply of most.

My mix is listed in my tank parameter spreadsheet below. I know quite a few successful people who are using a very similar blend. But as always your mileage may vary.

Greggz Tank Info Version 4.0 2022-3-10.jpg
 
Happi said:
the major problem with CSM+B is below:
View attachment 184362

when you take a spoon or whatever gram and mix it in the water, you are not 100% sure if you are adding more or less of several nutrients, look at this picture for example: if you took a spoon of CSM+B from the upper part, you will be adding more Copper, if you take a spoon from the lower part, it might be lacking copper. considering some of the nutrients that are needed in low ppm, you might be either missing those or they might not be present in the ppm that you should be getting.
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That is true and I can definitely see that as a problem for small batches.. before I make my trace mixes I do shake up the bag vigorously as recommended... for the 500 ml bottles I make ( I actually make 1000 ml and divvy it up in two bottles and use about 45 grams of the trace mix... ). That said, I somewhat have a hard time thinking it really matters much if dose 0.08 ppm/wk of Boron for a couple of months and then 0.12 ppm/wk for another couple of months instead of the ideal 0.1 ppm/wk consistently... Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it would be a disservice to the concept if we make this more academical than it needs to be.

Cheers,
Michael
 
MichaelJ said:
That is true and I can definitely see that as a problem for small batches.. before I make my trace mixes I do shake up the bag vigorously as recommended... for the 500 ml bottles I make ( I actually make 1000 ml and divvy it up in two bottles and use about 45 grams of the trace mix... ). That said, I somewhat have a hard time thinking it really matters much if dose 0.08 ppm/wk of Boron for a couple of months and then 0.12 ppm/wk for another couple of months instead of the ideal 0.1 ppm/wk consistently... Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it would be a disservice to the concept if we make this more academical than it needs to be.

Cheers,
Michael
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the worse case scenario would be when people try to use csm+b for a lean dosing.
 
Hi all,
Happi said:
@dw1305)wrote Only 0.15% of the CO2 turns into carbonic acid (H2CO3),...........Would this apply equally to zero dKH, 1 dKH and 10 dKH water?"
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Yes in theory, because the total amount of Total Inorganic Carbon / Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (TIC / DIC) remains constant, but the proportion of CO2 changes (and therefore the amount of H2CO3, which becomes H+ and HCO3-). Acids are <"proton (H+ ion) donors"> and the pH falls, unless you have a buffer of carbonate (dKH) which can go into solution and neutralise the "extra" H+ ions.

It is this process that leads to pH changes in the CO2 ~ HCO3- equilibrium. When you get to pH 8, you don't have any free CO2, <"all the TIC is bicarbonate (HCO3-)">.

wqassess3bpict1-gif.gif

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,
Happi said:
Does the 0.15% change across the pH range?
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No, it is just the proportion of CO2 that changes, but when you get to pH8 it is a theoretical 0.15% because none of the TIC is CO2.

When you continually add CO2 it mimics an atmosphere much richer in CO2 and the pH equilibrium point changes, this is how a drop checker works.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,
John q said:
Why is that? Educate the un educated.
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Happi said:
the worse case scenario would be when people try to use csm+b for a lean dosing.
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I'm guessing that if you try and dry dose very small amounts of CSM+B you aren't likely to get all of the micronutrients, because of the granular nature of the product. Think of it like you have a bag of M & Ms , if you take a handful chances are you will have all the colours, but as that handful gets smaller colours will go missing until your smallest selection is just one colour.

If you make up a stock solution, and then serially dilute it, you don't have this problem. Personally I'm not a fan of trying to <"weigh small weights"> so I would always use serial dilution. If you want to <"look like pro"> have a look at @X3NiTH's offering.

cheers Darrel
 
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dw1305 said:
Think of it like you have a bag of M & Ms , if you take a handful chances are you will have all the colours, but as that handful gets smaller colours will go missing until your smallest selection is just one colour.
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That was the point I was trying to make ... In my case I totally see how I could possibly skew the ratios in a seriously bad way if I would make a 100 ml dose and only use 4.5 grams as opposed to 45 grams in 1000 ml.... its like if you flip an honest coin 5 vs. 50 times... and write down the result... your not going to see the convergence towards 50% chance of head vs. tail until you flip it a reasonably number of times....

Cheers,
Michael

PS:: mmmmm..... M&M's 😋
 
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dw1305 said:
No, it is just the proportion of CO2 that changes, but when you get to pH8 it is a theoretical 0.15% because none of the TIC is CO2.
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What kills fish when too much CO2 is injected to pH8 water, CO2 or H2CO3?
 
John q said:
@Happi
Quick question if you don't mind. You've often mentioned csm+b trace mix as not being ideal. I've stumbled across a slightly different mix (thats if we believe the advertised %) and was wondering if you thought this mix was any better, worse or indifferent. Here's the breakdowns.
Current mix:
Analysis:
Fe 8.2% (EDTA Chelated)
Mn 1.82% (EDTA Chelated)
Zn 1.16% (EDTA Chelated)
B 1.05%
Cu 0.23% (EDTA Chelated)
Mo 0.15%

Alternative mix:
Fe – 7,80%, Mn- 2,00%, B – 1,40%,
Zn- 0,40%, Cu – 0,10%, Mo – 0,06%
E 202 & E 300, EDTA Chelated

Thoughts?
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sorry about the late reply on this one.

Current mix:
Analysis:
Fe - 0.1
Mn - 0.022
Zn - 0.014
B - 0.0128
Cu - 0.0028
Mo - 0.00183

if this is your current mix, then it would be much better than the one below. if you modify it with 0.02 MnSo4 and 0.05 ppm Fe DTPA, it will perform even better.


Alternative mix (EDTA Chelated):
Fe – 0.1 ppm
Mn - 0.025 ppm
B – 0.018 ppm
Zn - 0.0051 ppm
Cu – 0.00128 ppm
Mo – 0.000768 ppm
 
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