Lean dosing pros and cons

[Happi]

@MichaelJ​

you can achieve the same with lean dosing, lets say you added 5 ppm NO3 once a week with other needed nutrients, the results will be similar or even better.

 

[Happi]

I would have thought that goes against the whole lean dosing concept to be honest, as the tank won't be running on the lean level of nutrients for most of the week. The concept, as I understand it, is that nutrients aren't in significant excess at any point.

Edit: My post crossed with @Happi's and an incorrect guess from me.

dosing once a week has nothing to do with lean approach, you can dose lean or high once a week if you choose to. 5-10 ppm NO3 is already heading toward the lean direction weather you dose it once a week or cut it into 3x week.

 

[MichaelJ]

there is nothing wrong with such approach, Ca/Mg NPK all can be added once a week, you can also do something similar to Micros that are strongly chelated. it wouldn't work out well if you were to use NH4 or Urea once a week, but for NO3 this is totally fine. but just remember not to add too much NO3 either because it will stunt some plants, adding 5-10 ppm NO3 weekly is sufficient.

Hi @Happi Ok, that sounds good.

we don't have to worry so much about NPK, Ca, Mg being dosed once a week, but Micro and Fe are different story, like I said it will depend on how stable they are in your water and if they are stable then they last longer, even up to a week. DTPA Fe for example can stay in the water for even one full week under proper condition.

As far as my trace dosing I have an autodoser for that, so I can definitely make that work for adding traces in small lean quantities as frequent or infrequent as needed.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

I love the honest representation of what you are experiencing.

Thanks Gregg, I try and be honest describing what I see, my interpretation of cause and effect may well be flawed but that's where you guys step in and offer some words of wisdom.

Try to think of adjusting ferts like fine tuning an engine. It’s got to be running first. And if you don’t get the rest right, all the fine tuning of ferts in the world isn’t going to save you.

Haha yes I understand that analogy, up in the North of England we have a saying "You can't polish a turd."

You mentioned that this is csm+b but this rather looks like Aquarium Plant Food Trace.

This is why I love having more experienced people on hand to keep us on the straight and narrow. You are correct I am using APFT, for some strange reason I assumed that this was the same as Csm+b.
Everyday is a school day. 😃

John, you are still far from knowing the truth, but you will slowly get there. there are still several flaws in your dosing approach that will continue to give you mixed results as previously mentioned before.

I appreciate all the help Happi especially when I often deviate from your prescribed advice. I suppose I could be viewed as a work in progress, some of the things you say are sinking in, some things might take a little longer.

what is your plan for the NPK?

Bear with me on this one, and feel free to reject my train of thought 😁.
In January I had some Ludwigia which for me was doing well. Here it is.

Looking back: No3 11ppm, po4 3.5ppm

I moved this to the back of the tank which had reduced lighting and crappy flow. It stunted and lost its red colour and turned green, initially under same ferts level and didn't seem to do any better under various dosing regimes I was trying at the time. Probable cause, poor Co2 and reduced lighting?

End Feb removed from back and replanted in similar position to when it looked ok, more light, good flow and Co2 misting. Nutrient levels from 1st of March were this: No3 7ppm, Po4 2.27 ppm.
Here it is on 7th March. You can see the new growth (red leaves) old growth below.

Picture taken today: 16th March

Colouration probably worse, certainly hasn't been much growth in the last 9 days.

So hope everybody's not fallen asleep...

This plant was doing better under higher No3 and Po4, the sensible approach here would be to return to that dosing level, sit back and have a cold beer. But.... "we don't wanna do that!"

Sorry for the convoluted answer to your question Happi, I'm choosing NPK levels that are in between it doing well and current levels. New npk will be:

No3 9ppm
Po4 3ppm
K 6.9ppm

Ta.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @Happi,

So my lean-experiment tank is currently:

KH ~1 from K2CO3
GH ~4.75 (Ca 24 ppm / Mg 6 ppm) Ca Gluconate, CaSO4 and a tiny bit of CaCl2 (for the trace amount of Cl). Mg from Mg Gluconate and Mg(NO3)2).
pH is in the 6.2-6.5 range
Temperature 75 F / 24 C (very stable all year around)
Photoperiod +12 hours at low light intensity (my tanks are in a room with very low levels of ambient or daylight exposure)
Non-injected

NO3 15 from Mg(NO3)2
PO4 4.6 from KH2PO4
K 18.0 from K2CO3 and KH2PO4

So for NPK this is my plan (starting with the next WC this weekend):

Week 1-2

NO3 10 from
PO4 3 from
K 13.0 from

Week 3-4

NO3 7 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 9 ppm

Week 5 ....

NO3 5 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 7 ppm

In addition:

Dial down the Ca contents to 18 ppm but keeping the 6 ppm of Mg. (GH ~4.0)

Dial down the temperature to ~23 C. (~73F)

I am not sure yet about micro dosing. I am thinking about slowly dialing down the Fe target to 0.25 ppm EDTA weekly (Nilocg Plantex CSM+B).

Of course the big one is the light intensity. I will very gradually start increasing that perhaps on week 2 and closely monitor the situation.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[eminor]

Hello, i dose ammonia and urea nitrogen since few weeks, there is two big difference the first one, the plant are way greener, the second which i don't know if it's good, is that there kind of new growth between the leaves (sorry i'm french i don't know the exact name) picture will tell for me, almost all my plant have that, is that a good sign ? thx

 

[plantnoobdude]

the plant are way greener,

I believe @dw1305 had the same experience using miracle grow which contains ammoniacal N. plants are able to use urea/nh4 very effectively which is why you are seeing good green colour.

is that there kind of new growth between the leaves

usually that means that the growth of the apical bud has stunted or slowed for some reason. this means the shoot stops producing auxins (IAA) which will 'wake up' the dormant apical buds. I have noticed this when there is a change in fertiliser, a large water change or when the plant reaches the top of the tank and can't grow any more.

Difference Between Apical Bud and Axillary Bud - Pediaa.Com

The main difference between apical bud and axillary bud is that apical bud is the dominant embryonic shoot located in the apex whereas axillary bud is an embryonic shoot located in the axil of the leaf, which is dormant.

pediaa.com

hope this helps, cheers.

 

[Happi]

Nilocg Plantex CSM+B

Michael, just try to avoid this if you can.

Week 5 ....

NO3 5 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 7 ppm

not a bad plan.

 

[erwin123]

Hello, i dose ammonia and urea nitrogen since few weeks, there is two big difference the first one, the plant are way greener, the second which i don't know if it's good, is that there kind of new growth between the leaves (sorry i'm french i don't know the exact name) picture will tell for me, almost all my plant have that, is that a good sign ? thx

View attachment 184572

Hi Eminor you mentioned elsewhere that this is one of the Rotalas that is supposed to turn red, in which case, the one on the left which is yellowish-orange is considered more 'desirable' than the very green one of the right. Hope to see your latest photos in your journal - you haven't posted for a long time!

 

[Happi]

@MichaelJ
let me know what you think about this Article. Marcel Shared this with me few years ago and I am still not fully convinced about the Ca:Mg:K ratio of 2-3:1:0.5 however I do agree with their Fe:Mn ratio of 2:1 and many other things which also match with whatever we have talked about in the beginning of this thread. the google doesn't do such a great job translating German to English. if we find any information in these articles that can be used to improve the lean dosing we should apply it.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I believe @dw1305 had the same experience using miracle grow which contains ammoniacal N. plants are able to use urea/nh4 very effectively which is why you are seeing good green colour.

For me it <"produced a fairly instant greening">, but my plants <"would always be nitrogen deficient">, so it would be more obvious for me than for some-one who used greater levels of dosing.

These are @castle's <"floaters">. I don't know what fertiliser regime they are using, but it is obviously working. I would guess that in this case you wouldn't see the <"same change of colour">, just because the plants are pretty pumped already.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I am still not fully convinced about the Ca:Mg:K ratio of 2-3:1:0.5 however I do agree with their Fe:Mn ratio of 2:1 and many other things which also match with whatever we have talked about in the beginning of this thread

I think it depends a little bit on whether you are after optimal growth or <"acceptable growth">.

I'm just after <"some growth">, so personally I'm always going to use <"plant leaf colour and general health"> as an indication of nutrient level.

In terms of nutrient addition I'm just going to <"use a fertiliser"> that supplies all <"fourteen essential plant nutrients"> but I'm not going to worry too much about <"amounts or ratios">.

cheers Darrel

 

[castle]

Hi all,

For me it <"produced a fairly instant greening">, but my plants <"would always be nitrogen deficient">, so it would be more obvious for me than for some-one who used greater levels of dosing.

These are @castle's <"floaters">. I don't know what fertiliser regime they are using, but it is obviously working. I would guess that in this case you wouldn't see the <"same change of colour">, just because the plants are pretty pumped already.

cheers Darrel

Well, there are a few parts to their success:

The substrate obviously is leeching, I’m using 50/50 uncapped tropics soil and dooa tropical river soil.

I’m now living in the mid west of Scotland, the water is so soft I no longer get water marks around the tank rims.

I dose a few squirts of tropics specialised and ADA iron every now and then.

I pulled out a handful today and they ripped half of the soil up with them 😧

 

[swyftfeet]

Niloc CSM+B

Michael, just try to avoid this if you can.


not a bad plan.

@Happi why avoid CSM+B from NilocG?

 

[Gorillastomp]

Probable cause, poor Co2 and reduced lighting?

My experience with this plant, color is more related to lighting intensity than anything else. In my tank i could make it grow green when i was lowering the intensity under a certain %. When i ramp up the intensity again it became red to almost purpleish at some extend. Fertilizer was the same in both case.

 

[erwin123]

My experience with this plant, color is more related to lighting intensity than anything else. In my tank i could make it grow green when i was lowering the intensity under a certain %. When i ramp up the intensity again it became red to almost purpleish at some extend. Fertilizer was the same in both case.

Agree that Ludwigia Super Red's colour is unlikely to be affected by water column dosing. I had them in my tank when I was dosing 12 ppm NO3 and still have some now with 5.8ppm NO3

I have a couple of leftover stems in the rear corner of my tank, but I removed them because they had a tendency to become a tangled mess if I didn't trim regularly (unlike Rotala Blood Red which generally grows vertically and doesn't get tangled when overgrown).

 

[John q]

My experience with this plant, color is more related to lighting intensity than anything else.

Agree that Ludwigia Super Red's colour is unlikely to be affected by water column dosing.

Hey I'm in total agreement that the nutrient levels aren't affecting the colouration of this plant. Infact you can clearly see in the pictures the redness returns once moved to a brighter position.
It's the lack of growth that I'm questioning could be related.

Thankfully this is an easy experiment, I dose a bit more as outlined above and see what happens. As always I'll report back with honest pictures, good or bad.

 

[MichaelJ]

Michael, just try to avoid this [ Nilocg Plantex CSM+B ] if you can.

Hi @Happi what do you recommend instead? - preferably a premixed solution (can be dry or liquid).

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @Happi what do you recommend instead? - preferably a premixed solution (can be dry or liquid).

Cheers,
Michael

Hi @Happi here is a novel idea... How about if I just supplement my higher doses of macros with Tropica Specialized?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[plantnoobdude]

Hi @Happi here is a novel idea... How about if I just supplement my higher doses of macros with Tropica Specialized?

you mean premium? the micro only one. anyway, I had very good results using tropica fertiliser. can definitely recommend.