funny thing is that it grow slow but nicely in my walstad tank, i might try it in my main tank with 48w of t5ho over a 15gallons tank, should be enough light now
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Lean dosing pros and cons
- Thread starter Riverside Scaper
- Start date
GreggZ
Member
If you have CO2 then T5HO over a 15G should have it growing out of the tank in days!
yes, i know it supposed to be a really fast growing plant, but i don't know why, i can't make it, i'm gonna post pictures about it, i moved it in the tank =)
Hi @Happi and everyone 
I am preparing to change my macros the coming weekend, from EI to "lean" or to be precise I want to try Happi's suggested dosing with parts Urea.
Only I am a little bit confused which PPM's will be best for my water and setup.
I only have inert sand as substrate, which I am concerned will make things a bit harder, since there is no soil to smooth out any issues in nutrient availability.
I use tap water, values from waterworks below:
NH4-N + NH3-N <0.040 mg/l
NO3-N 0.319 mg/l
NO2-N <0.010 mg/l
Cl- 12.5 mg/l
SO4 2- 14.7 mg/l
Na 5.33 mg/l
Fe 0.0123 mg/l
Cu <0.001 mg/l
Mn <0.001 mg/l
Ni 0.000794 mg/l
B <0.01 mg/l
There are no reported values for P, Mg, and Mo.
The area the water travels through before it ends up in the lake is composed of bog and forest. No agricultural run-off as far as I am aware.
I know the water contains almost no Calcium (~4 mg/L) when they get it, but then they filter it over marble to raise it to "21g Ca/L", which they say adds up to "approx 3 GH".
They also add NaOH to raise the PH.
Tap water at my end comes out with approx 3 KH, 3 GH, 7.1-7.3 PH. TDS around 60 at the moment.
I raise the GH to around 6-7 for the shrimp before adding to tank.
[Edit] So 3-4 GH consisting of 80% Calcium sulphate and 20% Magnesium sulphate
To sum things up its pretty clean of nutrients but has artificially high PH because of NaOH.
There is no available data for phosphate but I assume it wont be huge amounts based on the other data?
Or is it likely they are adding this anyway for the precipitating properties? @dw1305 my beloved expert?
Based on the above Happi, what dosing would you suggest?
I am preparing to change my macros the coming weekend, from EI to "lean" or to be precise I want to try Happi's suggested dosing with parts Urea.
Only I am a little bit confused which PPM's will be best for my water and setup.
I only have inert sand as substrate, which I am concerned will make things a bit harder, since there is no soil to smooth out any issues in nutrient availability.
I use tap water, values from waterworks below:
NH4-N + NH3-N <0.040 mg/l
NO3-N 0.319 mg/l
NO2-N <0.010 mg/l
Cl- 12.5 mg/l
SO4 2- 14.7 mg/l
Na 5.33 mg/l
Fe 0.0123 mg/l
Cu <0.001 mg/l
Mn <0.001 mg/l
Ni 0.000794 mg/l
B <0.01 mg/l
There are no reported values for P, Mg, and Mo.
The area the water travels through before it ends up in the lake is composed of bog and forest. No agricultural run-off as far as I am aware.
I know the water contains almost no Calcium (~4 mg/L) when they get it, but then they filter it over marble to raise it to "21g Ca/L", which they say adds up to "approx 3 GH".
They also add NaOH to raise the PH.
Tap water at my end comes out with approx 3 KH, 3 GH, 7.1-7.3 PH. TDS around 60 at the moment.
I raise the GH to around 6-7 for the shrimp before adding to tank.
[Edit] So 3-4 GH consisting of 80% Calcium sulphate and 20% Magnesium sulphate
To sum things up its pretty clean of nutrients but has artificially high PH because of NaOH.
There is no available data for phosphate but I assume it wont be huge amounts based on the other data?
Or is it likely they are adding this anyway for the precipitating properties? @dw1305 my beloved expert?
Based on the above Happi, what dosing would you suggest?
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Hi all,
cheers Darrel
Pretty much perfect, and it would be nearly DI water out of the tap, if you didn't have the additions of NaOH and the dGH/dKH from the marble chips (CaCO3).
I'm guessing that they do add some phosphate, but probably less than 1 ppm PO4---. Orthophosphate is <"relatively easy to test"> for if you want to get a ball-park figure.
cheers Darrel
Ive been using the "standard" chemicals for macros, KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4.
Since 04.03.22 the tank got:
30 NO3
3 Po4
30 K
0.5 Fe CSM+B (APFUK) & a little DTPA
Plants somehow chlorotic with this dosing
But as of 21.03.22 (one week ago) tank gets
20 NO3
2 PO4
20 K
DIY Tropica ratio micros:
Fe 0.1 ppm (Fe 11% DTPA)
Mn 0.056 ppm (Mn 13% EDTA)
Zn 0.003 ppm (Zn 14% EDTA)
B 0.006 ppm (H3BO3)
Cu 0.0087 ppm (Cu 14% EDTA)
Mo 0.0029 ppm ((NH4)6Mo7O24.4(H2O))
Ni 0.0002 ppm (NiSO4.6(H2O))
Plants still chlorotic (doing me a hecking confusion), so put micros at 0.2 this past weekend.
I dosed CSM+B for micros with a bit of Fe DTPA before when I was running low tech, and did not have this persistent issue with pale new growth on plants.
Demand with injected CO2 must have highlighted some weakness in my dosing I suppose
Ah, yes I forgot, 20% of the remineralizer is Magnesium sulfate, so 20% of 3-4 GH's worth. Whatever that is 😵Your list is notably absent Mg @Hufsa which can also cause chlorosis
(Edit) Magnesium deficiency shouldnt present in the newest growth though?
Wookii
Member
Ah, sorry, missed the bit where you were remineralising.
@Hufsa
Start with multiple water changes, I usually recommend doing 2-3 80-90% water changes for the first few days to make sure the tank is almost free from anything excess that was previously buildup. You might witness some minor stunting in some plants due to sudden huge water changes, but it will resolve eventually.
your micro should be fine as the way they are.
add 8 ppm Mg to changed water, unless this option isn't available?
if you ever feel like the K is too little, feel free to add a little bit at the water changes, but first try the below:
far as the Macro goes, try something similar to Tropica Macro using the same ratio. you can combine KNO3 and Urea to get the desired N and K or try something like this below:
weekly target 2-3 N depending on the plant mass, start with 0.25 N daily
Make a solution for Macro using these ppm below:
Urea
KNO3
KH2PO4
Start with multiple water changes, I usually recommend doing 2-3 80-90% water changes for the first few days to make sure the tank is almost free from anything excess that was previously buildup. You might witness some minor stunting in some plants due to sudden huge water changes, but it will resolve eventually.
your micro should be fine as the way they are.
add 8 ppm Mg to changed water, unless this option isn't available?
if you ever feel like the K is too little, feel free to add a little bit at the water changes, but first try the below:
far as the Macro goes, try something similar to Tropica Macro using the same ratio. you can combine KNO3 and Urea to get the desired N and K or try something like this below:
weekly target 2-3 N depending on the plant mass, start with 0.25 N daily
Make a solution for Macro using these ppm below:
Urea
| N | 0.82000 |
KNO3
| NO3 | 0.80000 |
| N | 0.18071 |
| K | 0.50442 |
KH2PO4
| PO4 | 0.4 |
| P | 0.13 |
| K | 0.165 |
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My brain just got a real good work-out trying to wrap itself around working with different N sources 
I think my shrimp will prefer me doing it all in one day if I have to, if I change large amounts of water over several days some of them usually die.
If I do it all in one day I think they will only stress molt once and survive, instead of inducing stress molting over multiple days with the resulting deaths.
It might be my terrible impatience talking but I dont mind not spending ages trying to wean the plants off the old ferts when they havent even been working that well in the first place.
Are you saying you wish I would only add 8ppm Mg and no Calcium? If so I am afraid I cant do that.
If I need, lets say 7 GH for my shrimp, do you want more of this to be comprised of Mg?
I can tweak the ratios as I have separate Calcium sulphate and Magnesium sulphate.
I suppose the Ca:Mg ratio I have been doing so far has not taken into account that the 3 GH my tap water has is only comprised of Calcium.
You want me to start with 0.25 N daily, which is 1.75 N weekly. I usually make my ferts to be dosed at 30ml daily. So I could just do 30ml x 1.75 = ~52 ml daily for start-up, yes?
Then I can gradually ramp up to 60-90ml (2-3 N) as weeks go by?
My math hidden below for anyone who is particularly interested:
Sort of on topic, does anyone know how long Urea is stable in water? I was concerned that it might start to break down if one wants to make up ferts for a long time, but then no one would be able to sell Urea based liquid ferts, would they?
Im thinking of doing two 80-90% changes right after each other in one day. That should clear out most of the old ferts.
I think my shrimp will prefer me doing it all in one day if I have to, if I change large amounts of water over several days some of them usually die.
If I do it all in one day I think they will only stress molt once and survive, instead of inducing stress molting over multiple days with the resulting deaths.
My fussiest plants are already stunted and I have some fun algae so there is not much to lose
It might be my terrible impatience talking but I dont mind not spending ages trying to wean the plants off the old ferts when they havent even been working that well in the first place.
Can I continue at 0.2 you mean?
Not sure what you mean here? I need a certain amount of Calcium in my water because of the shrimp, otherwise they struggle to molt.
Are you saying you wish I would only add 8ppm Mg and no Calcium? If so I am afraid I cant do that.
If I need, lets say 7 GH for my shrimp, do you want more of this to be comprised of Mg?
I can tweak the ratios as I have separate Calcium sulphate and Magnesium sulphate.
I suppose the Ca:Mg ratio I have been doing so far has not taken into account that the 3 GH my tap water has is only comprised of Calcium.
Is there a main difference between Tropica and the numbers below? I assume the below is your recipe?
Ok so these give a total of 1.00071 N, I assume this was for a weekly recipe, which you then just double or triple dose eventually as plant mass increases?
You want me to start with 0.25 N daily, which is 1.75 N weekly. I usually make my ferts to be dosed at 30ml daily. So I could just do 30ml x 1.75 = ~52 ml daily for start-up, yes?
Then I can gradually ramp up to 60-90ml (2-3 N) as weeks go by?
My math hidden below for anyone who is particularly interested:
I wanted to get things into IFC calculator as I prefer using that, so I needed to work out how much NO3 to enter in the Target Calculator.
Google to the rescue: "To convert Nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) to Nitrate (NO3) multiply by 4.43"
1.00071 N x 4.43 = ~4.433 NO3
PO4 is fine as it is, then we just add up the K, 0.50442 + 0.165 = 0.66942. I wasnt allowed to enter less than 1 ppm K as a target, so I just left it blank.
The calculator catches up on the K added by KNO3 and KH2PO4 anyway and Happi's recipe doesnt use K2SO4.
To get the right ratio of the N sources in IFC I took the numbers from KNO3 (N 0.18071) and Urea (N 0.82000) and entered ratio 18:82 (Potassium Nitrate : Urea).
I double checked the gram amounts given by IFC and they match rotalabutterfly calculator
Google to the rescue: "To convert Nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) to Nitrate (NO3) multiply by 4.43"
1.00071 N x 4.43 = ~4.433 NO3
PO4 is fine as it is, then we just add up the K, 0.50442 + 0.165 = 0.66942. I wasnt allowed to enter less than 1 ppm K as a target, so I just left it blank.
The calculator catches up on the K added by KNO3 and KH2PO4 anyway and Happi's recipe doesnt use K2SO4.
To get the right ratio of the N sources in IFC I took the numbers from KNO3 (N 0.18071) and Urea (N 0.82000) and entered ratio 18:82 (Potassium Nitrate : Urea).
I double checked the gram amounts given by IFC and they match rotalabutterfly calculator
Sort of on topic, does anyone know how long Urea is stable in water? I was concerned that it might start to break down if one wants to make up ferts for a long time, but then no one would be able to sell Urea based liquid ferts, would they?
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John q
Member
Good catch thanks! Possibly also decreased CO2 demand because of mainly Urea dosing?
2 fold --> Urea provides CO2 in the plant to help meet the demand. Urea provides ammonia base so we need not potentially convert any nitrate to ammonia to be used - energy (CO2 demand) saved.
Also just less N in the column means less N is being forced through leaf pathway vs selective root pathway ... so overall demand "forced" will be less. Therefore, more free CO2 in column. The "drop" from green down to yellow is a "pseduo-metric" of how much CO2 was being forced "via" N/P in column.
plantnoobdude
Member
also about co2. on sunday I put some new drop checker fluid in the drop checker as most of the old stuff was gone or mixed with tank water....
yesterday it barely changed colour throughout the whole photoperiod , dark blue in morning, and maybe a super light blue/green colour in the afternoon. anyway, I'm guessing the needle valve drifted a bit? bps was maybe 1/2 a bubble per second , under EI i was doing 3-4 bps. today I increased co2 to maybe 1-2bps so it should get the drop checker changing colour a bit. pretty crazy ,so little co2, yet plants were still doing OK-ish. surprised it wasn;t catastrophic.
yesterday it barely changed colour throughout the whole photoperiod , dark blue in morning, and maybe a super light blue/green colour in the afternoon. anyway, I'm guessing the needle valve drifted a bit? bps was maybe 1/2 a bubble per second , under EI i was doing 3-4 bps. today I increased co2 to maybe 1-2bps so it should get the drop checker changing colour a bit. pretty crazy ,so little co2, yet plants were still doing OK-ish. surprised it wasn;t catastrophic.
this is fine
both have slight differences, they both will work well, but this one have more of the ratio that I personally use. if you have NH4NO3 on hand, I would love to add that in this recipe but i believe you don't have it. so we stick to Urea+KNO3 for now.
long as you have about 2.5:1 Ca:Mg ratio, we are good. if your tap water have 20 ppm Ca, I would add 8 ppm Mg. I believe your tap water have almost 0 Mg.
that is correct.
@plantnoobdude might be able to give you some advice or suggestions and you guys can work hand in hand from here. am not sure if he truly need to add lot of K yet but this is something we will work on down the road.
change the water as the way you wish before starting this, long as you get rid of the old buildup much as you can.
BTW the co2 coming from Urea is very minimum, Urea and Co2 should be up taken directly by the plants, this is where enzymes are activated by Nickel.
Nickel Urea
Nickel Urea
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plantnoobdude
Member
honestly, I'm not sure either. am currently dosing 3.3ppm K weekly for 2ppm N. I think this works well in particular because of extra N from soil and fish. anyways, My K is still quite low, 10x lower than EI anyway.
