Lean dosing pros and cons

[MichaelJ]

This was written by our member Riverside Scaper in post #38 on page 2. We are now on post #1,004 and page 51!
Debate on this subject is dangerously close to reaching War and Peace levels of interest.

Hi @Simon Cole I think we will eventually surpass Tolstoy's epic.

G. C. Gerlof-j and P. H. Krombhok were talking about exactly the same issues in their paper Tissue analysis as a measure of nutrient availability for the growth of angiosperm aquatic plants in 1966.
Perhaps if a member want to run experiments and provide a simple paper then this forum would be a great place to post the results.

A couple of us are doing that actually.

This thread might not be very user-friendly because every possible scenario and aspect of science has been discussed, often simultaneously. Debates benefit from being structured, and if people don't agree at the end then perhaps give it some time and come back with new evidence.

You are terribly right about that - it's a complete hodgepodge of overlapping and orthogonal discussions. I suggested early on that we set up a topic like "Alternative fertilizer methods" where we could discuss this and people who were inclined to suspend disbelief a bit could just nerd out on the topic instead of having the tedious X vs. Y discussion.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Hufsa]

I am always keen for an experiment. I will continue with the urea dosing for now and in a few months see what happens when I withdraw it.

I am also willing to replace the Urea with KNO3 once things are stable, to see what happens.

Sorry I have argue that. If you go down that road then it would probably be fair to think that most companies that produce fertlizer obviously know something or two about plants, yet they all have very different concoctions.

This isnt really fair. We cannot lump "some guy mixing up fert ratios in his garage business" into the same category as Tropica, who have physically produced a large percentage of the plants we have in our tanks. One of these has a bit more experience when it comes to propagating and growing plants, and therefore carries much more weight when it comes to their fertilizers and ratios.

...You shouldn't be giving people advise if you can't show what you are advising long term...

..He claims he has carried out experiments but reality is I would like to see actual tank pictures through time. Not just some random zoomed picture of a plant.

I must point out the double standard here.
Happi is not allowed to post individual pictures of plants but Clive is?
Happi is not allowed to post pictures from x years ago but Clive is?
Everyone should be held to the same standards, it cannot be different rules for different folks.

Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.

Happi is expected to keep a journal to back up his statements but Clive gets a pass again?
I believe Happi has stated that he has limited time to spend on the forum as he has young children.
I dont think we have any right to demand people spend more time on the forum over their family. We can express our interest in such a journal, but nothing more.

You forgot to post this one. I hope Clive doesn't mind me posting it. Something about this plant still isn't right, it appear to be covered with algae and the new growth is stunted.
#43 Worsening algae after starting EI dosing

This was misleading, either intentionally or unintentionally. Pictures should not be taken out of context. Fair is fair and this wasnt.

Honestly what do you guys think will be accomplished by arguing about who cherrypicks their pictures the most?
Do you think if you discuss it for 5 more pages that you will reach an agreement?

If more time was spent trying things and documenting it instead of bickering over the smallest stuff and taking jabs at each other this thread would be much more productive and I think also a few pages shorter.

 

[Happi]

It's ok @Hufsa let's move forward with our discussion about lean dosing and helping each others so we can focus on the main reasons why we are here.

Dear members, I do apologize if somone has taken my words in a wrong way or interpreted it that way. That is not my attention.

 

[macek.g]

Hello
All right, guys. There will be a lot of photos from my history of Dutch tanks.
Over 30 years with a large number of plants, in recent years about 50-80 species in one 360l tank
I have dealt with rare plants for over 10 years, so they were often found in my tank.
When it comes to fertilization, I used various (Ada, Aqua Rabell, Easy Life, Seachem, Tropica, Vimi, Qualdrop, ATP, ELOS, EI, Masterline and even more)
And so I always went back to dry powders, why? Because for me the details in the plant, the details in the leaf are the most important

I believe that "Lean dosing" is perfectly sufficient with the most advanced Dutch tank, let alone with the "Nature" tank with a few rotales crosswise.
If someone has a problem with plants with NO3 less than 15ppm per week, they simply have a problem with plant ingestion at this point and cannot find the cause.
This could be an SO4-Mo-NO3 problem or other causes.
PO4 ..... 3ppm, 5ppm, 10ppm .... and so most of it precipitates and binds to "-, Al3 + Fe-, or Ca-phosphates."

... "Precipitation on the other hand is a process by which metal ions such as Al3 + and Fe3 + (these ions are dominant in acidic soils) and Ca2 + (dominant in calcareous soils) react with phosphate ions present in the soil solution to form minerals such as Al-, Fe-, or Ca-phosphates ... ".



It is true, at least in my case, when using urea, I had 2x faster gains, which resulted in cutting the plants 2x a week, which with so many plants took too much time, the better option for me was the mix of UREA + KNO3 or Cano3, Mgno3.
I have been dosing different combinations, but the best results are NO3 in the range of 5-12 ppm per week.

 

[Happi]

This was misleading, either intentionally or unintentionally. Pictures should not be taken out of context. Fair is fair and this wasnt

I honestly wasn't aware of this and do apologize if that was the case.

 

[macek.g]

more photos...

 

[Happi]

5-12 ppm per week.

Can you please explain what happened if you went over these numbers? Say 12+ or higher.
Nice plants and coloration.

 

[macek.g]

My friend's tank
tank about 1000l, 15 months old
Fertilization began with the standard dose of Golden masterline
1 / 30ml per day x6 days
NO3-7.2 ppm per week
interestingly, it has been feeding only 50% of the fertilizer for 3-4 months

 

[macek.g]

Another friend's tank
NO3-10 ppm
P04- 0.2-0.5ppm
K-12ppm

 

[MichaelJ]

Hello
All right, guys. There will be a lot of photos from my history of Dutch tanks.
Over 30 years with a large number of plants, in recent years about 50-80 species in one 360l tank
I have dealt with rare plants for over 10 years, so they were often found in my tank.
When it comes to fertilization, I used various (Ada, Aqua Rabell, Easy Life, Seachem, Tropica, Vimi, Qualdrop, ATP, ELOS, EI, Masterline and even more)
And so I always went back to dry powders, why? Because for me the details in the plant, the details in the leaf are the most important

I believe that "Lean dosing" is perfectly sufficient with the most advanced Dutch tank, let alone with the "Nature" tank with a few rotales crosswise.
If someone has a problem with plants with NO3 less than 15ppm per week, they simply have a problem with plant ingestion at this point and cannot find the cause.
This could be an SO4-Mo-NO3 problem or other causes.
PO4 ..... 3ppm, 5ppm, 10ppm .... and so most of it precipitates and binds to "-, Al3 + Fe-, or Ca-phosphates."

... "Precipitation on the other hand is a process by which metal ions such as Al3 + and Fe3 + (these ions are dominant in acidic soils) and Ca2 + (dominant in calcareous soils) react with phosphate ions present in the soil solution to form minerals such as Al-, Fe-, or Ca-phosphates ... ".



It is true, at least in my case, when using urea, I had 2x faster gains, which resulted in cutting the plants 2x a week, which with so many plants took too much time, the better option for me was the mix of UREA + KNO3 or Cano3, Mgno3.
I have been dosing different combinations, but the best results are NO3 in the range of 5-12 ppm per week.

Hello @macek.g, Holy cr*p !!... thats a brutally awesome slew of plant pictures!

What other tank parameters are we looking at here, in terms of GH/KH/pH/Temperature ? I assume this is all high-tech?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

If carlseberg did planted tank threads they'd probably look something like this.. 👍 cudos to all that have contributed thus far 😀

 

[macek.g]

Can you please explain what happened if you went over these numbers? Say 12+ or higher.
Nice plants and coloration.

Well, this range gives me the best and the most stable results
PO4-0.1-0.5
K-8-15
as for NO3, I was doing the UREA + KNO3 mix
for example :
7ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 5 NO3 from UREA

In his second "Nature" tank
my dosing started with ELOS 1-2ml per week, with old ADA bottles I switched to Special Light 2-3ppm NO3 per week

 

[Happi]

Well, this range gives me the best and the most stable results
PO4-0.1-0.5
K-8-15
as for NO3, I was doing the UREA + KNO3 mix
for example :
7ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 5 NO3 from UREA

Thank you for sharing this. Definitely enjoyed the pictures, they are stunning 😍

 

[MichaelJ]

Well, this range gives me the best and the most stable results
PO4-0.1-0.5
K-8-15
as for NO3, I was doing the UREA + KNO3 mix
for example :
7ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 5 NO3 from UREA

In his second "Nature" tank
my dosing started with ELOS 1-2ml per week, with old ADA bottles I switched to Special Light 2-3ppm NO3 per week

Very interesting! - and quite lean I would say... Just repeating my question in case it was overlooked: what about GH/KH/pH/Temperature/CO2 in these tanks? (I am convinced all these things have to be factored in).

Cheers,
Michael

 

[GreggZ]

When it comes to fertilization, I used various (Ada, Aqua Rabell, Easy Life, Seachem, Tropica, Vimi, Qualdrop, ATP, ELOS, EI, Masterline and even more)
And so I always went back to dry powders, why? Because for me the details in the plant, the details in the leaf are the most important

Nice flex! What a wonderful grouping of pictures.

I see you have tried many fertilizers and dosing schemes. I am guessing that you were pretty successful with all/most of them??

And your friends tanks are stunning as well. One at NO3 10, PO4 at .5, and K at 12, so K higher than NO3. Then another using Masterline Golden with K slightly lower than NO3 but higher NO3: PO4 ratio.

I always find it interesting that there are so many beautiful tanks out there using so many different dosing schemes. To me shows if that get everything else right you can use many dosing schemes and be successful.

In the same spirit here are the tanks of some of my friends with richer dosing schemes. Not full EI, but with NO3 higher than 12 ppm and richer PO4. Again just goes to show there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

[macek.g]

Hello @macek.g, Holy cr*p !!... thats a brutally awesome slew of plant pictures!

What other tank parameters are we looking at here, in terms of GH/KH/pH/Temperature ? I assume this is all high-tech?

Cheers,
Michael

Mostly I used RO (I have quite a lot of NH4 in the tap)
so I used different mineralizers
Equalibrium, salty shrimp, vimi, qualdrop, according to your own needs
but of course I was mixing myself, taking into account the ballasts SO4, Cl, (CaMg (CO3) 2) or bicarbonates
temperature 23-24 ° C
GH -2-3 was sometimes 4-5
KH- 0-1
PAR 160 sometimes 150 or...

 

[MichaelJ]

In the same spirit here the tanks of some of my friends with richer dosing schemes. Not full EI, but with NO3 higher than 12 ppm and richer PO4.

Beautiful tanks!

Again just goes to show there are many ways to skin a cat.

For sure.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Mostly I used RO (I have quite a lot of NH4 in the tap)
so I used different mineralizers
Equalibrium, salty shrimp, vimi, qualdrop, according to your own needs
but of course I was mixing myself, taking into account the ballasts SO4, Cl, (CaMg (CO3) 2) or bicarbonates
temperature 23-24 ° C
GH -2-3 was sometimes 4-5
KH- 0-1
PAR 160 sometimes 150 or...

Perfect thanks a lot!

What about pH and CO2 ?

More anecdotal evidence in support of lean dosing goes hand in hand with soft to very soft water.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Gorillastomp]

I like George Farmer. He's a very nice, well accomplished guy. I admire what he has done in the hobby. But it would be no surprise that most of his tanks could get by with little to no nutrients.

I have listen to many videos by George Farmer and pretty sure he implied many times that he's using EI dosing style.

 

[macek.g]

Nice flex! What a wonderful grouping of pictures.

I see you have tried many fertilizers and dosing schemes. I am guessing that you were pretty successful with all/most of them??

And your friends tanks are stunning as well. One at NO3 10, PO4 at .5, and K at 12, so K higher than NO3. Then another using Masterline Golden with K slightly lower than NO3 but higher NO3: PO4 ratio.

I always find it interesting that there are so many beautiful tanks out there using so many different dosing schemes. To me shows if that get everything else right you can use many dosing schemes and be successful.

In the same spirit here the tanks of some of my friends with richer dosing schemes. Not full EI, but with NO3 higher than 12 ppm and richer PO4. Again just goes to show there are many ways to skin a cat.

No, I always had some buts in ready-made fertilizers.
Of course I wanted (one bottle and peace of mind) but something always did not fit
But I guess mixing dry powders is what I like

I know these tanks the most, because I have visited many portals around the world
@ Handy8888 tank is beautiful
but @Pikes' rotala kill tank topic was very interesting to me.

Here is my old tank, then I experimentally went up to 8ppm Fe😂

Colors of Nature

Hi, I would like to show you my FishTank :D Volume: 360L Dimensions:120x60x50 OW Substrate: New Amazonia Light: 6x54w Filter: Eheim 2080,2076 Fertilizer: Macro KNO3,KH2PO4-Micro Aqua Rebell,mikro special CO2-bottle 5kg,Aquatic Nature Tornado,before Atomizer,AM1000 Plants: Elatine Triandra...

www.ukaps.org

Wonderful Proserpinaca palusstris cuba

2watts per liter it is not thriving Just seen that.... if this is a large tank this is an overkill, well depend on what kind of light you have. With HQI you can shoot with more, with T5 this is way too much. Not sure if this isn't a typo and the light is 2w/g only which isn't that much.

www.ukaps.org