You can certainly use ammonium nitrate with livestock, this depends on PH and the acidity of the water.
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make ammonium nitrate
- Thread starter hasan66
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Hi all,
I'm <"not aCO2 user">, for example, and I'm generally a bit <"risk adverse">. In terms of Total Ammoniacal Nitrogen (TAN) I'm always worried about <"ionized (NH4+) becoming unionized"> (NH3), with <"catastrophic results">.
I <"used to regard urea"> (CO(NH2)2) in much the same way that I (still) regard ammonia, but I've come round to the view that it is much less of a risk.
cheers Darrel
I understand that, but <"personally I wouldn't">, partially because I'm a fairly slap-dash scientist and aquarist. This is a discussion that has been knocking around UKAPS for a long time: <"Dosing with Ammonia and Urea">
I'm <"not aCO2 user">, for example, and I'm generally a bit <"risk adverse">. In terms of Total Ammoniacal Nitrogen (TAN) I'm always worried about <"ionized (NH4+) becoming unionized"> (NH3), with <"catastrophic results">.
I <"used to regard urea"> (CO(NH2)2) in much the same way that I (still) regard ammonia, but I've come round to the view that it is much less of a risk.
cheers Darrel
Well, I have switched to Darrell urea fertilizer, but I will keep 0.2ppm magnesium nitrate in my tank. Can I keep the urea fertilizer in my liquid stock bottle or do you recommend dry dosing?
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
Probably dry dosing, just to avoid the urea being converted to ammonia in the stock bottle. That may be over cautious, I'll add in @Zeus.
cheers Darrel
John q
Member
I think you can (or at least i do) but I wouldn't mix up a solution to last longer than a couple of weeks. Ph also seems to play a big part in the speed urea breaks down in solution so if you can acidify the mix it should last a bit longer.
That's my understanding of urea in solution, but it would be nice hear from somebody that can either confirm or contradict my thoughts.
Zeus.
Fertz Meister
All depends on size of tank and also dose concentration in the tank.
When your dry dosing 5grams plus of salt plus per dose then dry dosing generally wins , if your dry dosing less than 1gram of salt then solutions beings to win. Its all about the order of accuracy to a point - not to a few ppm.
Solutions interact and breakdown and mold and auto dosers need cleaning. Plus don't make bulk solutions unless your store them in fridge/freezer 4 to 6 weeks max at room temp in dark - esp if DIY ferts as if its not made in sterile conditions we are basically making a broth which get a sprinkle of mold spores when we make them
But we are talking urea which is going to start the conversation to NO3 as soon as it lands in the tank, so we also wish to avoid any peak [NO2] etc, so depends on the tanks concentration of the urea dose
Then there's the frequency also, on my 500l I had a auto doser I could dose many times a week easy so I did, small doses 100 times per week so I was able to dose a reasonably higher weekly [N] with confidence that any peaks of any toxic levels during the breakdown of urea was avoided. I started with week mix of urea prills to KNO3 ratio and slowly built it up to higher levels of urea
Hi. Darrel, is the equivalent of 0.5ppm urea 0.25ppm N 0.25x4.43=1.10 nitrate? Is my calculation wrong or correct?
John q
Member
It's close enough.
Rough guide.
What do these have in common?
0.23 ppm nitrogen N
0.29 ppm ammonium NH4
0.48 ppm urea CO(NH2)2
0.65 ppm ammonium nitrate NH4NO3
1.00 ppm nitrate NO3
Answers on a postcard peeps.
MichaelJ
Member
pH is the big multiplier here... an increase in pH by 1 - say going from pH 6 to 7 increases the Toxic Free ammonia by a factor of 10 for any level of Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN)! (following the log10 of pH). A 1 pH spike is quite common for CO2 injected tank during gas-off hours.
The trouble with NH4 kicks in around pH 7.5 as it begins to go gaseous and turn into NH3 (see chart below). So a high TAN level can easily turn catastrophic if you have a spike in pH... That being said, If dosing NH4NO3 on the lean side - which by and large you are encouraged to do with NH4NO3 anyway - and your tank is moderately to densely planted and well-maintained I wouldn't be worried about the livestock even at neutral pH or slightly above.
In many ways, being a shrimp keeper, some of which are pretty finicky, the NH4 thingy is really no different from keeping Copper, Zinc and Nickel in check - elements that are prone to accumulate in the substrate and where toxicity increases inversely. i.e. copper becomes more toxic at lower pH ! ... I would submit as a matter of opinion that injecting CO2 probably poses a higher risk for your livestock than dosing meaningful amounts of NH4NO3 in an otherwise well kept planted aquarium.
Cheers,
Michael
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John q
Member
Well ammonia as killed far more fish than co2 injection ever did, but hey, I get the point.
MichaelJ
Member
Yes John, In the grand scheme of the hobby that is for sure. But that is not from dosing NH4NO3, but rather lack of proper husbandry. Also there are no way near enough people injecting CO2 to make a dent in that overall statistics (the amount of CO2 users here on UKAPS and other aficionado forums gives a false impression on the number of actual CO2 users out there).
Sure, I am not saying dosing NH4NO3 is appropriate for everyone given the inherent risks if used inappropriately, but we should not deprive ourselves from using one of the best sources of Nitrogen we have. No surprise that Tropica - one of the worlds premium aquatic plant growers - opted to offer a fertilizer with NH4NO3.
As far as the risk profile of CO2 ... and you know way more about this than I do (I am not a CO2 user), but the points of failure causing excessive CO2 levels that I can think of: incorrect application of drop checker, timer or regulator malfunction, filter/circulation breakdown/outage while gas is on causing pockets with excessive CO2 concentration and possibly other potential points of failure. So how likely are any of those things to happen? Not very likely judging from the postings around here mostly by people who did or are doing their homework, spend the money on quality equipment and otherwise are vigilant, but the risk is certainly there.
Cheers,
Michael
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John q
Member
All valid points that you make, and I'm probably erring on the side of caution here, that said I do worry that there seems to have been a sea change in the advice given to people recently that dosing NH4, Urea etc is a pre requisite for a healthy planted tank. These sources of N may well be preferable to plants regards uptake, but folks should be aware that it potentially comes with a risk, especially if somebody isn't that clued up on the workings of a planted tank. We should also remind people that lots of healthy planted tanks manage just fine with plain old N03.
We should also remember that in general people have livestock in the tank, so there is already a constant supply of NH4, what we can't be sure of is how much of this is produced and how adding additional NH4 via dosing potentially tips the scales of safety.
Personally I dose small amounts of Urea on a daily basis, so I'm not trying to bash anyone that follows this regime, I simply urge folks to be cautious and go into it with eyes wide open, even if the risk is small. BTW, I'd give the same cautionary advice to anybody injecting C02 too.
John q
Member
Hiya mate, I currently dose 12.7ppm No3 front loaded at water change, so equivalent to 6.35ppm weekly and add 0.5ppm N via urea split into 6 doses 0.083ppm N daily. Also have lots of fish.
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MichaelJ
Member
Not sure about a sea change ... at least I haven't noticed it... but sure, anyone promoting NH4/Urea as a prerequisite for growing healthy plants is obviously and evidently wrong... I haven't seen (m)any statements to that effect around here myself though. You can definitely grow plants with good ol' KNO3 ... personally I am still mainly using Mg(NO3)2 in one of my tanks and it works just fine. I just dose a bit more as it is less absorbable / bio available - which is an important point when we suggest dosing... Not all compounds are created equal for the same ppm of N (or other elements) and the effectiveness and amount needed depend on the compounds themselves and the specifics of the tank conditions/water they are applied to... hard vs. soft, alkaline vs. acidic, ratios among elements, tech level etc. The slightly more knowledgeable and aspirational members among us (myself included) have to get better at factoring these things in when giving advice. Not very easy for sure.
Yes, I agree, thats a pitfall... And the members among us that are "promoting" NH4 usage need to be better at pointing out those risks and be better at giving advice in the right context factoring in the specifics as mention above.
Cheers,
Michael
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My friend, after the dose of urea, whiteness appears on the windows. Does this happen to you too?
My friend, NH4 is finished for now, I found it useful, but I use urea fertilizer in combination with magnesium nitrate to a certain level, but unfortunately I couldn't get anywhere with No3 alone, maybe that's what happened to me. My plants, especially Rotala types, don't like it at all and they always end up with spots as a result of too much No3 dose. I came across moss, but no3 is still necessary, the plant shows this.
So if we put 10 grams there, we will get my double salt dose of 11 grams, did I understand correctly?
75 litrelik tanka 70 gram koyarsam 0,98 ppm olur ama tuzumuz çift tuz olduğu için 77 gram koyarsak 0,98 ppm elde edilir. Bu doğru mu Darrel?
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