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Maq's Substrate Experiment

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_Maq_ said:
I tend to believe the benefits of aquasoil have more to do with general physico-chemical properties. Clays, humic substances, their adsorption qualities, improved root creation... I can only guess.
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Yes, and it's obviously harder to quantify the impact of those substances and effects than the stated parameter / measurement differences such as Nitrogen levels - which is consistently very high in (C).
_Maq_ said:
Aquasoil is perhaps 5 % better, but we should not forget about the remaining 95 %!
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Right... we tend to focus on what makes the best slightly better ... and less so on what makes the the remaining (95%) work well.

_Maq_ said:
That's a feat in itself, I think.
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John q said:
doff my cap to you sir.
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I agree with John... In particular, I like the results in (A) with less variables... I would be pretty happy with that even if it may not be the "best" possible solution for all plants. The unpredictability and cost of admission with the aqua soil wouldn't be worth it for me personally.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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I believe that if you yank you the plants in aquasoil vs gravel, you will see the plants in aquasoil having more developed root systems (it may be different across species).

I recall some in UKAPS saying that a more developed root system doesn't mean that a plant likes root feeding. Extensive root systems may just be a mechanical function to anchor the plant and nutrient intake still takes place in water column.

Later, on reading more about root systems in terrestrial plants and how there is a lot of fascinating microbial activity as well as chemical activity going on around the root system. For example, how the plants root systems are able to manufacture their own chelate to access otherwise inacessible iron. There is also the aspect of extensive root systems reducing the chance of soil going anoxic.

So if aquasoil results in identical plants having a more developed root system which stimulates beneficial microbial activity, that can only be good for the plant, even if it is happy to take in nutrients from the water column as well.
 
erwin123 said:
Later, on reading more about root systems in terrestrial plants and how there is a lot of fascinating microbial activity as well as chemical activity going on around the root system. For example, how the plants root systems are able to manufacture their own chelate to access otherwise inacessible iron. There is also the aspect of extensive root systems reducing the chance of soil going anoxic.

So if aquasoil results in identical plants having a more developed root system which stimulates beneficial microbial activity, that can only be good for the plant, even if it is happy to take in nutrients from the water column as well.
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The complex root/soil/microbe interactions are so fascinating. There are so many neat tricks plants can do in soil with a favorable texture and CEC to get what they need. This is the heart of the appeal of soil to me, though I understand why other people might prefer the clean, uniform, and unchanging nature of sand or other inert substrates.

I am always keen for more reports on more difficult species grown without CO2 injection and so I look forward to how this experiment develops, but the fact is that people have found success with all kinds of substrates. That's not to say substrate choice doesn't matter at all, just that with proper management it shouldn't make or break the tank.
 
This is a thread and an experiment devoted to silica sand vs. aquasoil. This is my first experience with aquasoil and I admit I quite like it. Aesthetically, the colour is much better, and functionally, it seems to work well. What I don't know, yet, is what would happen if I have aquasoil in a tank with my beloved small cichlids.
But I should add (once more) that plain silica sand is not (any more) my substrate of choice. I'm about to re-establish my Portugals with the intention to test some DIY substrates. Based on silica sand, but with additives. Powdered clay, powdered ferric oxide, zeolite, peat, perhaps some other substances are those I have in mind.
I think the belief that a good substrate should serve as a rich source of nutrients is largely wrong. It's physico-chemical features, namely its adsorption qualities and ability to host microbes to ensure complete nutrient cycling, that is what we should look after. I quite believe both plants and microbes like clay particles not only for their CEC properties; it's also a suitable "colonization area", so popular. Yet powdered clay should be applied with caution, not to turn the substrate into a dense mud with a few silica grains in it.

What is a real problem with silica sand is it's colour. It can be improved a bit through treatment with iron; quite a tricky procedure. I'm still searching for something darker in colour. But not artificially coloured sands - I do not trust their adsorption properties. I once used a black coloured sand and it turned out it had lipophilic (i.e. hydrophobic!) properties; it quickly ended in disaster.
 
Hi all,
_Maq_ said:
Based on silica sand, but with additives. Powdered clay, powdered ferric oxide, zeolite, peat, perhaps some other substances are those I have in mind.
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I use sand with a minimal amount <"(~10%) clay and "leaf mold">.

I like the leaf mold to still show obvious leaf fragments and use either Oak (Quercus spp.) or Hornbeam (<"Carpinus betulus">). I'm not sure there is anything particularly special about these trees, they are just easily available to me and have persistent leaf litter. I've used Beech (Fagus sylvatica) in the past and I'm pretty sure that is just as suitable. I'm <"pretty lazy"> and Beech leaves involve a five minute walk, rather than a two minute one.

Other trees, like Lime (Tilia x europea), Birch (Betula spp.) and Alder (Alnus glutinosa) don't form persistent leaf litter and disappear relatively quickly in the tank. I use dead Magnolia grandiflora and Camellia x williamsii leaves as <"structural leaf litter"> and eventually they will be fragmented.
_Maq_ said:
I think the belief that a good substrate should serve as a rich source of nutrients is largely wrong. It's physico-chemical features, namely its adsorption qualities and ability to host microbes to ensure complete nutrient cycling, that is what we should look after. I quite believe both plants and microbes like clay particles not only for their CEC properties; it's also a suitable "colonization area", so popular. Yet powdered clay should be applied with caution, not to turn the substrate into a dense mud with a few silica grains in it.
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That is the heart of the matter for me <"Cyanobacteria Identification - At Last!">.

I don't really care about <"which substrate I start with">, if I* leave it relatively undisturbed over time <"natural processes are going to occur">, and I'm pretty sure that is an unalloyed good thing.

*I think the "I" is relevant, when I say "undisturbed" and I really mean undisturbed by me. I have tank janitors (Asellus aquaticus, Crangonyx pseudogracilis, Planorbella duryi, Physella acuta) that shred any surface vegetable matter and presumably eat a lot of the potential fungal and bacterial spores, as well as Melanoides tuberculata and Lumbriculus variegatus within the substrate <"Minimum maintainence">.

cheers Darrel
 
_Maq_ said:
What is a real problem with silica sand is it's colour. It can be improved a bit through treatment with iron; quite a tricky procedure. I'm still searching for something darker in colour. But not artificially coloured sands - I do not trust their adsorption properties. I once used a black coloured sand and it turned out it had lipophilic (i.e. hydrophobic!) properties; it quickly ended in disaster.
Click to expand...

These might be too commercial/artisan/expensive (delete as applicable) for your tastes, but Wio have started to release an ever increasing range of cosmetic sands focused towards Biotope tanks, which look very natural , with different colourations and more importantly, varying grain sizes which give can give a very natural look. As far as I am aware, they are all naturally occurring aggregates, and not coloured or treated in any way. Equally as important, most appear to be inert with no CaCO2 content.

 
I had missed where you officially stated you were moving on from sand, @_Maq_ !
_Maq_ said:
Yet powdered clay should be applied with caution, not to turn the substrate into a dense mud with a few silica grains in it.
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I would also be cognizant that clay is a colloid. If you allow it to become suspended in the water column it can be a gross disaster. It doesn't seem to take too long for the clay to get stuck to other stuff in the substrate, so it hasn't been a problem for me long term.

I'm interested in your diy experiments. If I didn't already have aquasoil that I need to use up I would probably go that route myself with amended native mineral soil with a cap.

@dw1305 so interesting about humic substances and cyanobacteria. I've been more interested in botanicals lately, but they pose an aesthetic problem for me. Have you ever dosed humic or fulvic acid directly? @_Maq_ did you say you experimented with them at some point and didn't like the results?
 
Hi all,
ElleDee said:
I've been more interested in botanicals lately, ............. Have you ever dosed humic or fulvic acid directly?
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I haven't. There are products you can buy that claim to contain them <"Thoughts on Blackwater Extract products . . ."> and <"leaves & gravel vacuuming">.
ElleDee said:
...... but they pose an aesthetic problem for me......
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I don't have any aesthetic issue with structural leaf litter (<"see below">) (or any <"sense of aesthetics">) so I'm happy to use leaves and Alder (Alnus spp.) "cones" <"Medicinal trees: The Common Alder - Aqualog.de"> & <"leaves & gravel vacuuming">.

tank_backoflab-jpg.jpg


cheers Darrel
 
Wookii said:
These might be too commercial/artisan/expensive (delete as applicable) for your tastes, but Wio have started to release an ever increasing range of cosmetic sands focused towards Biotope tanks, which look very natural , with different colourations and more importantly, varying grain sizes which give can give a very natural look. As far as I am aware, they are all naturally occurring aggregates, and not coloured or treated in any way. Equally as important, most appear to be inert with no CaCO2 content.

Click to expand...

Now I am thinking perhaps to add a top layer say 10 mm of this or something similar:

To me it's a purely aesthetic consideration.

Would that be practical in a densely planted tank? Anyone done that?

Cheers,
Michael
 
_Maq_ said:
This is a thread and an experiment devoted to silica sand vs. aquasoil. This is my first experience with aquasoil and I admit I quite like it. Aesthetically, the colour is much better, and functionally, it seems to work well. What I don't know, yet, is what would happen if I have aquasoil in a tank with my beloved small cichlids.
But I should add (once more) that plain silica sand is not (any more) my substrate of choice. I'm about to re-establish my Portugals with the intention to test some DIY substrates. Based on silica sand, but with additives. Powdered clay, powdered ferric oxide, zeolite, peat, perhaps some other substances are those I have in mind.
I think the belief that a good substrate should serve as a rich source of nutrients is largely wrong. It's physico-chemical features, namely its adsorption qualities and ability to host microbes to ensure complete nutrient cycling, that is what we should look after. I quite believe both plants and microbes like clay particles not only for their CEC properties; it's also a suitable "colonization area", so popular. Yet powdered clay should be applied with caution, not to turn the substrate into a dense mud with a few silica grains in it.
Click to expand...

What would be a good example of the type of Powdered clay you would use?

What's the advantage of zeolite? my understanding is that zeolite will exchange ammonium ions for sodium ions?

Interesting offshot discussion. If I had the opportunity to redo my choice of substrate I personally would go for some good looking contrast enhancing gravel with a 1.5-2.5mm grain size in order to retain nutrient distribution throughout the substrate.

Cheers,
Michael
 
ElleDee said:
I've been more interested in botanicals lately, but they pose an aesthetic problem for me
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I hear what your saying about the aesthetics. I add quite a bit of botanicals to both my tanks. They add a lot of valuable compounds to the water including many with medicinal properties - something we can't really get from other sources and of course my shrimps love to graze on them when they develop bio film after a while. I use fairly large dried almond leaves (Catappa leaves). I have a couple of spots in the back of the tank where I can fit them in under roots and such to make sure they don't float around (take a day or so before they are soaked). You can always pre-soak them in some tank water and break them up and fit them in here and there between plants.

Cheers,
Michael
 
dw1305 said:
cheers Darrel
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@dw1305 - we have a long running bet in the office that you will never post without providing a link in that post.

Will you help me win?! :D
 
Wookii said:
These might be too commercial/artisan/expensive (delete as applicable) for your tastes, but Wio have started to release an ever increasing range of cosmetic sands focused towards Biotope tanks, which look very natural , with different colourations and more importantly, varying grain sizes which give can give a very natural look. As far as I am aware, they are all naturally occurring aggregates, and not coloured or treated in any way. Equally as important, most appear to be inert with no CaCO2 content.
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I know them and like some of them. But the price is beyond my possibilities.
ElleDee said:
I had missed where you officially stated you were moving on from sand, @_Maq_ !
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A few days/weeks ago I had an opportunity to mention that I don't stick rigorously to clean silica sand.
But already half year ago I've changed my signature for "Plain silica sand" to "Sandy substrates". At that time I've begun contemplating trying DIY substrates again, after I quit some four years ago.
ElleDee said:
I would also be cognizant that clay is a colloid. If you allow it to become suspended in the water column it can be a gross disaster.
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It creates a mineral bloom, and the particles never settle. It takes several WC to get rid of it. A few months ago I've established such a tank. I haven't got time and will to begin a journal, here. But I will, it's a nice, well doing tank.
ElleDee said:
@_Maq_ did you say you experimented with them at some point and didn't like the results?
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I beg your pardon - what do you mean by "them"?
MichaelJ said:
What would be a good example of the type of Powdered clay you would use?
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Winemakers use some selected clays for purifying purposes. I'll choose one of them because I believe they must be clean, namely devoid of calcite particles.
MichaelJ said:
What's the advantage of zeolite? my understanding is that zeolite will exchange ammonium ions for sodium ions?
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There are many zeolites (incl. artificial) with differing ability to entrap/release various species. I'm considering clinoptilolite of Slovakian origin, a cheap one widely used in ours as cat litter or ammonia trap in pool filters. If I'm not mistaken, it has good affinity for potassium, too. That's important because potassium normally does not adsorb (on clays etc.).
 
Day 46 (jan 22): Fertilizing Fe 8.4 µg/L. Measuring:
1705916402462.png

pH in tank D is getting a bit adventurous, I'm afraid. I wonder if I should continue the way I did, OR, next time upon WC replacing CaCl2 with CaCO3. Suggestions?
 
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