Mixing ferts to resemble ADA lineup

notmysign

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Hi everyone.
So for my next scape in trying the ADA substrate system and I am planning on mixing my salts to resemble the ada liquid linup. But I have a hard time trying to find information on what 1ml/20L gives me from these:

Brighty K
Green Brighty Mineral
Green Brighty Iron
Green Brighty Nitrogen

What salts i have to use:
KNO3
KH2PO4
K2SO4
MgSO4.7H2O
CaCl2.2H2O

Anyone willing to help me?
/Daniel
 

dw1305

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notmysign

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Hi all,There is an analysis of the ADA fertilisers at the Barr report <"https://barrreport.com/barr-report-resources/old-newsletters/Analysis-of-ADA-liquid-fertilizers.pdf">.

I wouldn't get too hung up on exactly replicating the <"ADA mixes">. Once a K+ ion is in solution it is the same as every other K+ ion, it doesn't matter where it came from.

cheers Darrel
Thanks for that analysis but it seems ADA's new ferts is not included.
I was just trying to replicating that 1ml/20L = ppm?? if you understand.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I was just trying to replicating that 1ml/20L = ppm?? if you understand.
I do, but ADA won't tell you what the fertiliser contains, so it will all be guesswork. My only comment is that this is probably the most expensive water on the planet in those bottles, and that the nutrient addition will be a fraction of EI levels.

Personally I use a different approach, I don't add any nutrients on a regular basis I just use the growth, and leaf colour, of a floating plant to <"estimate nutrient status">.
Rather than the regular addition of nutrients, I use <"a different approach">. I have a floating plant (usually <"Limnobium laevigatum">) and ,<"heavy planting"> of <"easy" plants"> in the tanks. I just watch the <"growth and leaf colour of the floating plant"> (so not CO2, or light, limited), all the time the leaves are green and the plant growing (how ever slowly) I don't add any nutrients (other than whatever arrives via water changes).

When plant growth (or leaf colour) deteriorates I add some nutrients, once growth has resumed it is back to observing and waiting.
If you want to work out the addition of nutrients from the compounds, that you already have, it is quite straight forward.

I'll use KNO3, so that dissolves as a K+ and a NO3- ion. The RAM of potassium is 39, nitrogen 14 and oxygen 16, so the RMM of KNO3 is 39 + 14 = (16 * 3) = 101, so ~40% K and 60% NO3.

When you have one gram of KNO3 you have 0.4g of K and 0.6g of NO3. You can convert grams to milligrams by dividing by 10^-3 and to micro-grams by dividing by 10^-6. So 0.4g of K is 400,000 micrograms. You can convert grams to kilograms by multiplying by 10^3, and one kilogram of water has the volume of 1 litre (1000 cm3).

I'll assume your tank is 100 litres (so that I can do the maths easily), when you add 1g of KNO3 you've added 0.4g of K+ ions, which is equivalent to 400 milligrams and milligrams per litre is equivalent to ppm. Divide 400 by 100 and you get 4ppm.

You have added 4ppm K and 6ppm NO3. If you want to check you can use the calculator at <"Rotala Butterfly">, which will give you a more accurate, 6.13 ppm NO3 and 3.87 ppm K.

cheers Darrel
 

notmysign

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Thanks for everything you have explained. I have come up with a mixture that is exactly like : https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/apt-fertilizer.html
And then i remember about reading about James planted tank all in one : LINK
And this thread : EI all in one
So i have come up with this recipe:
nutrient.png

The suggested dosing from Dennis Wong is 4 times/week 1ml/20L water and i have adjusted to 5ml/30L water
What im wondering is, if i were to make a all in one with my recipe. Can i use the same amount of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate that James have suggested? there is not much of differences in his recipe and mine:
0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
Can i use the same amount of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate that James have suggested? there is not much of differences in his recipe and mine:
You can, they are just to acidify the solution (the ascorbic acid) and stop microbial growth (potassium sorbate), so the exact amount isn't important.

They act synergistically, the sorbate is only effective at below pH7.

cheers Darrel
 

Fred13

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Can we use any potassium we want instead of going with the ADA K? Let's say that we are using the ada substrate system along with their expensive ferts. Can we exchange ada K for another potassium? Is it the exact same thing?
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Can we use any potassium we want instead of going with the ADA K? Let's say that we are using the ada substrate system along with their expensive ferts. Can we exchange ada K for another potassium? Is it the exact same thing?
Yes, any one will do.

Every single K+ ion is identical, it doesn't matter what compound it came from. Potassium is highly reactive, so it will always form compounds, and all those compounds are soluble.

If you add potassium metal to water you get potassium hydroxide KOH (and hydrogen evolved). When you have CO2 present you get KHCO3. If you add it to potassium hydroxide to hydrochloric acid (HCl) you get KCl, to nitric acid (HNO3) you get KNO3 etc.

When you add any of these compounds ("salts") to water they all dissolve into ions K+ OH-, K+ HCO3-, K+ Cl-, K+ NO3- etc. and each K+ ion is exactly the same.

cheers Darrel
 

Fred13

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Hi all, Yes, any one will do.

Every single K+ ion is identical, it doesn't matter what compound it came from. Potassium is highly reactive, so it will always form compounds, and all those compounds are soluble.

If you add potassium metal to water you get potassium hydroxide KOH (and hydrogen evolved). When you have CO2 present you get KHCO3. If you add it to potassium hydroxide to hydrochloric acid (HCl) you get KCl, to nitric acid (HNO3) you get KNO3 etc.

When you add any of these compounds ("salts") to water they all dissolve into ions K+ OH-, K+ HCO3-, K+ Cl-, K+ NO3- etc. and each K+ ion is exactly the same.

cheers Darrel
Thank you very much for your explanation Darrel. Any other K source even in liquid form as the seachem potassium is much cheaper than using the ada ..
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Any other K source even in liquid form as the seachem potassium is much cheaper than using the ada ..
That's it, fertilisers mixes can have different ratios of nutrients (and for some of the less soluble nutrients different chelators), but they don't have different ions, and plants (even terrestrial ones) can only take up nutrients as ions from solution.

People often use potassium nitrate (KNO3) or dipotassium hydrogen phosphate (K2HPO4) as their potassium source, because of the nitrate (NO3-) and phosphate (PO4---) anions, but it doesn't make any difference to the plant if the potassium (K+) ions come from potassium chloride (KCl) etc.

The only difference is that you just have a less useful anion.

cheers Darrel
 

Hanuman

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Thanks for everything you have explained. I have come up with a mixture that is exactly like : https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/apt-fertilizer.html
And then i remember about reading about James planted tank all in one : LINK
And this thread : EI all in one
So i have come up with this recipe:
View attachment 121645
The suggested dosing from Dennis Wong is 4 times/week 1ml/20L water and i have adjusted to 5ml/30L water
What im wondering is, if i were to make a all in one with my recipe. Can i use the same amount of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate that James have suggested? there is not much of differences in his recipe and mine:
0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
Curious to know how that formula has been doing for you. Care to share you experience?
 

Hanuman

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Recently had the chance to test the PH of the ATP Complete formula of Dennis Wong. It came out to be PH 5.5/5.6. The PH meter was calibrated just before to make sure the result was as accurate as possible. I am rather surprised of such high PH.
There is little iron in his formulation (0.03ppm) so I am wandering if there is any correlation there.

Also, considering the recommended dosage of 1ml for 20L of water adds the following:
NO3=1.5 ppm
PO4=0.7 ppm
K=4 ppm
Mg=0.4 ppm
Fe=0.03 ppm
ATP formulation cannot be done with K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4 and MgSO4 because the solubility rates of KH2PO4 is already over its limit of 11.1g/100ml (@20 degrees Celsius). This leads me to think KCL could be used since it has a solubility of 34.2g/100ml (@20 degrees Celsius) BUT if that is the case then it would add 0.97ppm of Cl per dose. This begs the question, is this amount of Cl acceptable? After a week of dosing one would have nearly 4ppm of Cl.

So in your opinion what is being done in this formulation for it to be stable at such PH and what potassium source is being used to overcome solubility rates?
 

Zeus.

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Ran it though my fert calculator
1589275392600.png

so for 300ml solution the same as ATP salts to add
1589275474681.png

Solubility results for solution
1589275549287.png

One easy solution is to add a little K2CO3 as a source of K and a little kH at the same time
1589275958601.png

salts to add
1589276016337.png

dKH added per ATP (clone) dose
1589276508296.png

solubility report for solution much better
1589276067022.png

and cost for you mix per litre - based on cost of buying salts
1589276174419.png

( some off the features show above have yet to be released on my fert calculator)
 

Hanuman

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Location
Thailand
Ok so adding K2CO3 could be an easy way. The total additional ~0.6dKH added by the end of the week is not so great though. If you are working with 100% RO then surely that is not a big deal but if working with partially tap/RO then that will rise the KH to an undesirable level, which is the case I am in. Some of the plants I have are better kept below 2/3dKH and my KH hoovers around 2, sometimes 3, partially due to tap water.

Also, any ideas on why such high PH? Most fertilizers I have tested are between PH3 or PH4 at most.
 
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