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Nutrient deficiencies?

R

Regent

Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
139
Location
Kenilworth
Hi all,
I seem to have some deficiencies developing.. I'm using an all in one ei mix with nitrates at 25ppm, potassium 30ppm, phosphate 8ppm, magnesium 10ppm, iron 0.5 ppm (mix of buffers as my water has a GH of 9.8). Made with acidified DI water one litre lasts two weeks.

Other thoughts, this could be flow related? ( I know there is detritus build up in this area.)
Co2? My drop checker is green sat right by the staurogyne and co2 is going in via a reactor.
This is my staurogyne repens which is demonstrating interveinal chlorosis and I've noticed the same starting on some of the new crypts growth. Not sure what to modify!
IMG_20220405_141047.jpg


However my floaters look pretty good! At least to my eyes..
IMG_20220405_141109.jpg

Any help much appreciated!
 
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Nope, the floaters are at the opposite end of the tank and the repens is on the side of the tank facing into a very (annoyingly) bright kitchen so if anything is getting far more light than I'd like!
I've just moved a powerhead for now, I'm hoping to pick up a pair of gyres if there's a good Easter sale!

I wonder if it's that they get too much natural light before the co2 comes on.. I'm suspecting a mix of flow and co2..
 
That "deficiency" looks localised. If it is zinc, then switch from an all-in-one fertiliser to two separate ones. I don't use all-in-one mixes because it goes against everything I have ever read about fertilisers, specifically Zn-Phosphate complexes and nutrient lock-out. It is as if these manufacturers have seen fertiliser compatibility charts. All commercial growers will use two tanks to separate mixtures, and many watering systems won't even allow these fertilisers to mix at the point of application.
 
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GHNelson said:
Have you tested the Nitrate level?
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I hadn't, I've pretty much stopped all testing, good shout. Sadly I think it's safe to say nitrates are not the limiting factor.. If anything there's too much nitrate!
 

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X3NiTH said:
From the looks I’m gonna put my eggs in the ‘Zinc deficiency’ basket! There is probably enough in the water column to keep the floaters happy but maybe not enough for the Stauro possibly as you have noted it’s receiving extra ambient light.

View attachment 185971

The Effect of Light in Zinc Deficiency in Subterranean Clover

:)
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Simon Cole said:
That "deficiency" looks localised. If it is zinc, then switch from an all-in-one fertiliser to two separate ones. I don't use all-in-one mixes because it goes against everything I have ever read about fertilisers, specifically Zn-Phosphate complexes and nutrient lock-out. It is as if these manufacturers have seen fertiliser compatibility charts and have still chosen to adopt a negligent attitude. All commercial growers will use two tanks to separate mixtures, and many watering systems won't even allow these fertilisers to mix at the point of application.
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Zinc is not something I'd have even considered!
It's an easy fix to switch from aio. I'll do a macro only batch on my dosing pump and then dry dose the micros for a few weeks and see ...
 
Credit to @X3NiTH . I would eliminate phosphate for a few days if you can, possibly with a water change. If you've got a testing kit for phosphate and the levels are high, I would guess that it would continue to lock-out zinc. I do macros on alternating days with the micros, so you might be able to get the macros to skip every couple of days, or longer if you want a period of enrichment. With S. Repens and crypts I have skipped macros for a week without much bother.
 
Hi all,
Simon Cole said:
I would eliminate phosphate for a few days if you can, possibly with a water change.
Click to expand...
Zinc (Zn) is <"slightly mobile"> within the plant, but I don't actually know what that means in practice in terms of the plant being able to repair damaged tissue.

If it can't repair the tissue? The Staurogyne repens leaves will remain chlorotic, even when Zn becomes available, and only new leaves will be normally green.

cheers Darrel
 
@dw1305 Here is a good "overview" paper: (PDF) Zinc in plants - An overview

There are quite a few ideas on how it is translocated, and that paper is from 2012, but I think there is enough mobility to get the job done. My feeling is very much that and phosphate-bound or organic-bound zinc could be released from within plant tissue over time. Interesting to note that the repair processes of PSII are dependent upon Zinc (page 3). I have observed complete reversal of chlorosis in certain terrestrial species within four weeks. There can still be distortion of upper leaf cells if it was already present before remediation, mainly due to the impact that limitation has on the cell walls. Even if it was fully chelated, I would not expect plant-available zinc to survive beyond a few days in an all-in-one fertiliser.
 
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Thanks Simon and Darrel for your input.
I'm running high phosphates anyway, which has interestingly stopped all GSA.
It may have complexed my zinc (and iron) though. I wonder how @LondonDragon avoids this as my aio is based on his recipe.

I love it when people link evidence to my posts, makes it feel much less like total guess work!

I've ordered a phosphate test kit out of interest.
The water company are currently flushing pipes in my area, so as soon as I'm sure they're done, big water change and new batch of two part fertilizer coming up!
 
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And I think we have a winner...
Tap phosphates
IMG_20220407_140425.jpg


Tank phosphate
IMG_20220407_134547.jpg

I'm guessing this is binding iron and zinc.
Doesn't explain why the floaters are doing fine, though they're in the path of the fertilizer
 
Interestingly I just got a reply from my water company for the last quarter average I probably don't need to add much other than potassium and trace... Given I do a 50-80% water change everyweek.
(makes me wonder if if some people who lean dose just have quite rich water to begin with)
pH 7.12 -7.34
Nitrates 18.12 mg/l
Phosphate 1.743 mg/l
Potassium 4.29 mg/l
Magnesium 42.41 mg/l
Calcium 69.9 mg/l
Carbonate CaCO3 174.7mg/l
Bicarbonate 213.19 mg/l

Iron < 8ug/l
Mn < 0.7 ug/l
Zn -unknown
Bo <0.024 mg/l
Cu 0.0065 mg/l
 
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Hi all,
Regent said:
Nitrates 18.12 mg/l
Phosphate 1.743 mg/l
Potassium 4.29 mg/l
Magnesium 42.41 mg/l
Calcium 69.9 mg/l
Carbonate CaCO3 174.7mg/l
Bicarbonate 213.19 mg/l
Click to expand...
Your water is interesting. The hardness and macro-nutrient content is pretty standard for S. England, but the large amount of magnesium (Mg) is unusual for the UK, and is because of <"the geology"> with Permian and Triassic age rocks laid down <"in desert conditions">.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,

Your water is interesting. The hardness and macro-nutrient content is pretty standard for S. England, but the large amount of magnesium (Mg) is unusual for the UK, and is because of <"the geology"> with Permian and Triassic age rocks laid down <"in desert conditions">.

cheers Darrel
Click to expand...

I live in Kenilworth so you're spot on with that! This is supply zone ZWA13, more interestingly noted in the report -The supply to this area is from surface water treated at works in Worcestershire.
P.S That geology link is a really interesting read!
 
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Hi all,
Regent said:
P.S That geology link is a really interesting read!
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Geology helps a lot with working out what your tap water is likely to be like.

Most UK hard water comes from Chalk (Cretaceous) or Jurassic Age Limestone aquifers and all permanent hardness (dGH) tends to come from calcium (Ca).

You only get much magnesium (Mg) in the water where the limestone was laid down in an <"evaporite basin"> and has undergone <"dolomitization">.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi.
Very interesting this.
So if I am also adding extra PO4 to combat a bit of GSA should i be concerned about possible deficiencies because of this?
I dose all in one with extra PO4.

Cheers
 
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