Ph down buffer.

[Kelvin12]

Hello all,
I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side. However I have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels 5.8 , 6.0 quite quickly. I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is Biphosphate. In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL. Everything seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8, 7.0 mark. I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
I have PRL and CRS shrimp.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hello all,
I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side. However I have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels 5.8 , 6.0 quite quickly. I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is Biphosphate. In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL. Everything seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8, 7.0 mark. I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
I have PRL and CRS shrimp.

Hi @Kelvin12 What is your KH level? If your KH ("pH buffering") is too high, pH will be hard to lower (ditch the "pH Down", it wont do your tank any good... the best way to lower pH, if that's what you really want, is to lower your KH down to the 1-3'ish range, and add botanicals such as Indian Almond leaves or filter over peat moss to reduce the pH... Crystal Red Shrimps and supposedly Pure Red Line should do just fine at the 6.5-6.9 level though, but they will probably be somewhat better off at the lower end of that range. I am in the process of introducing CRS myself and the respected breeder I am working with says a TDS around 130 ppm and 6.5- 6.9 (slightly below neutral) will be perfect... I am just waiting for my parameters to slowly get there and the Minnesota winter to blow over and get some decent temperature highs so he can ship them out! Can't wait!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

f your KH ("pH buffering") is too high, pH will be hard to lower (ditch the "pH Down", it wont do your tank any good... the best way to lower pH, if that's what you really want, is to lower your KH down to the 1-3'ish range, and add botanicals such as Indian Almond leaves or filter over peat moss to reduce the pH.

That one.

' Ph down ' where the active constitute is Biphosphate

Sounds like a <"phosphate based buffer">. These consist of a mixture of monobasic dihydrogen phosphate (two hydrogen atoms and a weak acid) and dibasic monohydrogen phosphate (two alkali metal atoms (either two sodium (Na) or two potassium (K)) and a weak base) and are usually a mix of Na2HPO4 and NaH2PO4. <"Potassium (K) would be better"> than sodium (Na), but if they are just for aquarium use? Sodium is cheaper. I'd be tempted to ask the manufacturer whether they contain sodium.

I'm not a great fan of <"pH buffers">, but if you could get potassium based ones (K2HPO4 and KH2PO4)? They won't do any harm.

cheers Darrel

 

[Kelvin12]

Kh zero both breed of shrimps. Its costing me a bundle in IAL and peat. Breeders recommend slightly different parameters. Sydney suppliers have different waters to us up here on the mid north coast. Ph values are quite different up here compared to Sydney. TDS recomendations are lower than yours

 

[Kelvin12]

Dont know why the above reply didn't go yesterday...... cyber hiccup.

 

[Kelvin12]

Darrel, I'll check out to see if I can get hold of those chemicals you mentioned.

I know using driftwood is an option to lower Ph but wouldn't driftwood contain a lot of ocean salts. Assuming the driftwood relates to wood washed up on the beach front. We have ton of that around this coast. OR are we talking about fresh water drift wood. I have used beach driftwood in cherry shrimp tanks with no ill effects but their Ph is way higher and probably worry.

Just as a side note I tried Discs buffer and associated Neutral Regulator. As far as Ph went brilliant. My early bucket testes had the Ph very low, 4.5 to 5.0 actually lower than I needed using just the buffer alone with no Regulator. BUT the TDS was up around the 400 plus mark. Using the regulator bought the Ph back to 7.0 Ph as it stated it would do but the TDS was into the 1400 mark. So not a suitable option unless you could get the TDS down.

Dirk

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Using the regulator bought the Ph back to 7.0 Ph as it stated it would do but the TDS was into the 1400 mark. So not a suitable option unless you could get the TDS down.

That is the issue, for a buffer to work you have to have an excess of undissolved salt (the buffer) that can go into solution and this means that the TDS will always be high when you use them.
The buffer system most of us are most familiar with is carbonate buffering ( CO2 ~ HCO3) where you need carbonate buffering (dKH) to <"limit the pH fall as CO2 levels rise">.

I know using driftwood is an option to lower Ph but wouldn't driftwood contain a lot of ocean salts. Assuming the driftwood relates to wood washed up on the beach front. We have ton of that around this coast. OR are we talking about fresh water drift wood. I have used beach driftwood in cherry shrimp tanks with no ill effects but their Ph is way higher

I don't think ocean drift wood will lower pH and you would need to soak it in freshwater for a long time to get rid of the residual salt. Sea water is strongly carbonate buffered as well as incredibly salty.

cheers Darrel

 

[Kelvin12]

Hence the confusion drift wood here in AU is generally considered beach wood thrown up on the sand after storms. Fresh water stream wood is river or swamp wood.

So would dry bush or scrub wood release tannons.

Dirk

 

[sparkyweasel]

wouldn't driftwood contain a lot of ocean salts. Assuming the driftwood relates to wood washed up on the beach front

You know what 'driftwood' means.
A lot of people call any old wood driftwood if they are using it for decor. Or selling it.

 

[Kelvin12]

Yes you are dead right some of the wood I have seen on ebay supposedly for aquarium use looks like it should be burned. I guess anything to make a dollar.

 

[MichaelJ]

I'm not a great fan of <"pH buffers">, but if you could get potassium based ones (K2HPO4 and KH2PO4)? They won't do any harm.

Hi Darrel, I am trying to understand this one... How can Potassium dihydrogen phosphate or KH2PO4 (which I'm using) act as a "pH buffer" ... I understand when the KH2PO4 is dissolved in water, the OH- ions will raise pH, but how does that act as a "buffer" - as in making the water more rigid to pH change? and how will that help the OP who wish to lower his pH and "keep" it there. Just want to understand this.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I just think <"buffering is a difficult concept">.

How can Potassium dihydrogen phosphate or KH2PO4 (which I'm using) act as a "pH buffer" ... I understand when the KH2PO4 is dissolved in water, the OH- ions will raise pH,

On its own it will actually lower the pH, because you have two hydrogen ions (H+ or a proton) that go into solution, and acids are "proton donors". It is only a buffer in conjunction with dipotassium hydrogen phosphate (K2HPO4), where you have two potassium ions (K+) and its a base (it will accept a proton, and bases are "proton acceptors").

as in making the water more rigid to pH change? and how will that help the OP who wish to lower his pH and "keep" it there. Just want to understand this.

<"Different proportions of conjugate weak acid and base"> will produce liquids with different pH values. Because they they are weak acids and bases they have two dissolution constants <"and there is a continual reserve of buffer which keeps the pH steady">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all,
I just think <"buffering is a difficult concept">.

On its own it will actually lower the pH, because you have two hydrogen ions (H+ or a proton) that go into solution, and acids are "proton donors". It is only a buffer in conjunction with dipotassium hydrogen phosphate (K2HPO4), where you have two potassium ions (K+) and its a base (it will accept a proton, and bases are "proton acceptors").

<"Different proportions of conjugate weak acid and base"> will produce liquids with different pH values. Because they they are weak acids and bases they have two dissolution constants <"and there is a continual reserve of buffer which keeps the pH steady">.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel, Thanks for clarifying and providing some good references!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thanks for clarifying and providing some good references!

You are welcome. I never really had a practical understanding of <"buffering and pH before I joined UKAPS">. I knew the definitions, but I didn't really understand how you could apply them, and what they actually meant in practice.

It was a bit like theoretically knowing how to drive a (shift stick) car, but never having done it and not really understanding what was important and what wasn't.

It was only when a colleague explained buffering to me, <"in terms I could understand">, that buffered systems (like the <"pH drop with added CO2"> (and measurement by a drop checker etc)) began to make sense.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all,

You are welcome. I never really had a practical understanding of <"buffering and pH before I joined UKAPS">. I knew the definitions, but I didn't really understand how you could apply them, and what they actually meant in practice.

It was a bit like theoretically knowing how to drive a (shift stick) car, but never having done it and not really understanding what was important and what wasn't.

That is sort of what I feel like with a lot of the chemistry that goes into the hobby; I have a decent bird's-eye view of the concepts concerning our water chemistry, but I am often still in the dark when it comes down to the practical implications. Precipitation, for instance, is another one of those I am continuously struggling with when mixing various compounds.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

That is sort of what I feel like with a lot of the chemistry that goes into the hobby; I have a decent bird's-eye view of the concepts concerning our water chemistry, but I am often still in the dark when it comes down to the practical implications

That is the issue, it is really easy to get lost in a <"very expensive worm-hole"> of "I'll know what is wrong, if I just do more water testing and get more expensive (and better) test kits".

I still do it sometimes, if I get a pH reading I don't like with a teaching lab. meter (£250), I'll go and test it again with a desk based one (£2500) in another lab. All I need to do is get another teaching lab. meter, if it reads anywhere close? It's the solution that isn't quite right, not the meter.

I like <"understanding how things work">, but often it doesn't really help in <"terms of practical application">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Kelvin12]

This is right out of my pay scale by a long shot..... So Darrel what would be your best bet or recomendation of a chemical to use as a buffer if I need it later. I understand you are not a fan of buffers and understand you might not like to commit. At the present time a combination of peat (quite a bit of it) and IAL with a few alder cones thrown in seems to be keeping it at the top end of my desired Ph range thankfully but I don't have a lot of wiggle room.

Dirk

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So Darrel what would be your best bet or recomendation of a chemical to use as a buffer if I need it later

Probably <"citric acid" (C6H8O7)>, if you can get hold of it?

I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .

Just add less/no remineraliser. The real answer is to start with very soft water (less than 50 ppm TDS ~ 80 microS) and add humic compounds (like you are doing).

Have a look at this thread on <"Apistogramma forums"> and <"All the leaves are brown">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Just add less/no remineraliser. The real answer is to start with very soft water (less than 50 ppm TDS ~ 80 microS) and add humic compounds (like you are doing).

Hi @Kelvin12 I agree with this... I used to be obsessed/addicted to pH buffers and chemical acidifiers. Start with RO water (or extremely soft water), aim very low with KH (1-3 KH range), add some acidifying botanicals and it will get you there naturally without any adverse side effects in my experience.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

This is right out of my pay scale by a long shot..... So Darrel what would be your best bet or recomendation of a chemical to use as a buffer if I need it later. I understand you are not a fan of buffers and understand you might not like to commit. At the present time a combination of peat (quite a bit of it) and IAL with a few alder cones thrown in seems to be keeping it at the top end of my desired Ph range thankfully but I don't have a lot of wiggle room.

Dirk

Indian Almond leaves (Catappa) leaves... gives you a lot of bang for the buck. Check this chart below:

Cheers,
Michael