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pH profile vs drop checker

chandler

chandler

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2014
Messages
28
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
For a while now I have been trying to wrap my head around a few CO2 issues. As far as I understand it, the “best” way is to do a pH profile to make sure that pH the pH drop is adequate before lights on – which means at least 1 degree in my case since I have like kH = 3.


But for me, even with relatively heavy surface movement, it is hard to completely air the CO2 off over night… Hence, the desired pH drop will make the drop checker yellow and fish suffering/shrimps dying.


To be sure, getting a nice looking pH profile is hard work and I’m thinking it may be akin to the Formula 1 which isn’t for me since I’m still only a bus driver if you see what I mean?:) Isn’t it okay just to aim for a lime green drop checker instead – or what am I missing here?


Moreover, is it necessarily a bad thing that I evidently have a decent amount of CO2 left in the tanks overnight? If that makes the environment in terms of CO2 and pH more stable, maybe my shrimps will feel better too?


Finally in your experience, are cherry shrimps significantly less tolerant to CO2 and EI dosing than most fishes or is this a myth? Should I instead have CO2 on 24/7 in my shrimp tanks and try a leaner dosing regime?

Cheers, Chandler
 
I think these are all very good questions. And the answer is in you my fried:). It depends how technical you want to get.


chandler said:
But for me, even with relatively heavy surface movement, it is hard to completely air the CO2 off over night… Hence, the desired pH drop will make the drop checker yellow and fish suffering/shrimps dying.
Click to expand...
I suppose CO2 is off at night here? If its not degassing then you might not have a perfect system. This isnt really a big deal. But if fish/shrimp are dying then there is too much CO2 or relationship CO2/O2 is too high. You can either up your surface movement or lower your co2 injection or both. A picture or video of your surface would help here.

chandler said:
To be sure, getting a nice looking pH profile is hard work and I’m thinking it may be akin to the Formula 1 which isn’t for me since I’m still only a bus driver if you see what I mean?
Click to expand...
Well the good thing with a ph pen is that you can see if co2 keeps going up or is stable during the photoperiod. Its the best way to do it but its up to you.


chandler said:
Isn’t it okay just to aim for a lime green drop checker instead – or what am I missing here?
Click to expand...
It is ok but, you will probably have to lower your light until you dont get algae and you cant see instant ph changes as with a ph pen.


chandler said:
Moreover, is it necessarily a bad thing that I evidently have a decent amount of CO2 left in the tanks overnight?
Click to expand...
Its not a big deal if its not too much. How do you know its too much? Look at your fishes and shrimp. Ideally all co2 should degass.

chandler said:
If that makes the environment in terms of CO2 and pH more stable, maybe my shrimps will feel better too?
Click to expand...
Dont worry about this co2 stability with regards to fish. Tehy arent affected by the pH change due to co2 at all. They are only affected by too much co2 which can asphyxiate them.


chandler said:
Finally in your experience, are cherry shrimps significantly less tolerant to CO2 and EI dosing than most fishes or is this a myth? Should I instead have CO2 on 24/7 in my shrimp tanks and try a leaner dosing regime?
Click to expand...
You can try this. Maybe aim for a 0.5-0.7 pH drop 24/7. Youll need to lower your light until its dialed in. You can also dose a bit less but not a lot less.


Cheers!
 
Thanks for the replies guys!

Actually I have 5 CO2 injected tanks. The two biggest I started up a year or so ago, and all of them have given me new experiences.

1. The 70*70*70 cm cube was originally a low tech that grew (relatively easy) plants excellent although it took time to get on top of the hair algae. Substrate is dirt plus gravel on top in this one. I converted it to a CO2 injected tank last autumn I think and everything went relatively smooth. Lately, however, plants are stunting in this tank and I have what seems to be CO2 related problems with e.g. H. pinnatifida. In this tank I have really good flow, multiple filters and a koralia on top of it all so I think it is fair to say that I have made an effort to get everything right in accordance with the conventional wisdom on this forum. :) Lime green drop checker here.

Since it is a good 90cm from the lights down to the bottom I am uncertain if PAR could have been too low at the substrate level. It is a Maxspect Razor so the punch should be pretty good, but I turned intensity down signficantly a few months ago since one of the things I have learned on UKAPS is that people generally use too much light.... If I only had a PAR meter I would now for sure although it is not fun to pay that kind of money for a device you probably not use more than 5 times... Anyways, a few weeks ago I increased lights again so it will be interesting too see any changes to plant health. I am also adding a GH booster now after WC, since I think it has some extra potassium (K) in it and that problem I have with the H. Pinnatifida could be K-related (or CO2 as I said above).

2. The other big tank is some 400L, 120*60*60 or something like that. LED lights from BuildMyLed. Had huge algae problems (cyano, diatoms, some other green-looking algae) shortly after starting up but after a blackout everything went away and I'm telling you it is really a djungle now :) I will try to get some photos up over the weekend... Only problem here is that the Staurogyne Repens is loosing it leaves, which seems to indicate less than perfect CO2 despite the yellow/lime green drop checker. Flow is excellent thanks to a fx6 although plants certainly are getting in the way since everytning is growing so well and I evidently have a problem with pruning too much.... That said, the drop checker is placed in the most unfavorable place -- but it is almost yellow nonetheless as stated above.

3. Small nano growing really well. Substate is dirt with some gravel on top and the plants are weeping moss, dwarf sword as carpet and Cryptocoryne Wenditii (sorry for the spelling...) Used the DSM here with good results. A month or two ago I converted this tank too to CO2 from Easy Carbo. Some GDA and a little bit BGA against the front glass but nothing aggressive and not too annoying either. But I killed the cherry shrimps with a combination of too much CO2 and/or too much EI which was unfortunate.

4. and 5. are 70L OW that I started up 1-2 months ago and they are on both sides of the nano and all are connected to the same CO2 bottle with a splitter. Cyano and diatoms shortly after startup, but after a blackout and a period of less light I am on top of the algae issues although plants have not really start growing so well. In particular, I am having the same problems as above with the H. pinnatifida and S. repens which I find very annoying. The hairgrass is growing well, however and I seem to be growing not HC exactly but it looks like HC although the leaves are twice as big. I was told when I bought it that it was a Hemianthus too but I cannot remember the name now... Substrate is dirt plus gravel plus akadama on top of it all in these tanks.

In the 3,4,5 above I have really been pushing it with respect to the gas injection, especially since I accidently killed the shrimps. 3 is fine but in 4 and 5 I am still looking for the plant takeoff. I use as much gas as the guppies can handle, a yellow drop checker, lights are on full throttle again (2'24w t5 with reflectors) but so far not the vigorous growth I'm been looking for. The pH drop at least 1 degree before lights on, and this is likely not from the 2-4 ppm level since DC is green before gas on and the surface movements are not so violent in these tanks. Good flow though, especially in one of them where I have a rated 15 times/hour turnover. In this tank I just installed an UP atomizer so it will be interesting to see how that works out.

So it is relatively early days in these tanks still, but I remember my first planted tank last year (not active anymore) where I almost could see plants growing... Beginners luck or what? Admittedly I had Oliver Knott substrate in that one but since I'm dosing EI now I thought the substrate did not matter much...

Sorry for the long post -- I hope you could follow it :)

P.S. With respect to the Pinnatifida issues... The plants were growing emersed before I flooded them.... Maybe it is hard to make the transformation to a submersed state and this is why some plant leaves are turning transparent/falling off? Leaves seems to be getting holes too which is why I was thinking about potassium deficiency.

Cheers, Chandler
 
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Hey chandler some pics of the 4ft. Sounds like you have your hand full. Nice one! ;)
 
perhaps if you cut the number of tanks and performed more regular maintenance some of your problems would go away.
the big hc is probably monte carlo. I have it in my cube and its a little easier than hc.
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Micranthemum'MonteCarlo'(025TC)/4442
I'm starting to think that too much light can stunt growth, .if not balances with the correct co2 and nutrients, I'm also starting to think this can happen without algae being present.
and to answer your original question...
ph profile is the best way to check co2 levels/timing in your tank but the drop checker and only the drop checker will tell you the correct ppm.
the drop checker is likely to have a delay of 1.5-3 hours too so lime green at lights on does not necessarily mean you have enough co2 at lights on.
these are the reasons I use both.
 
Hi again. family still asleep so I got the time to play around with imageshack for an hour or so. Here are some pictures :)

1. The cube a month or so ago before the last major pruning (growth has stunted since).

hBnQor.jpg


2. The 400L a.k.a "The djungle".

vdODHU.jpg


3. The small ones.

l1CFpL.jpg


One of the OW:s. No scape yet, just trying to get things going... Ground cover is the Cuba look-alike (don't think it is Monte Carlo though)

8dEeks.jpg


the other OW, hairgrass doing okay (although one almost cannot see it on the picture since it is not thick yet), staurogyne repens not so much.

QhI8Uz.jpg


the Nano.
AiJJjc.jpg


It is looking way better IRL.

Cheers, Mattias
 
Photos never done justice, so have you got live stock in your collection?
 
Well, I probably need a better camera to catch things moving. In the 2 bigger tanks there are cichlids which are doing well. In the 3 small tanks I will probably try my luck with shrimps again although I'm waiting for the tanks to mature and growth to take off. After that, I think I will try my luck with gas on 24/7 to minimize the CO2/pH swings.
 
Big clown said:
perhaps if you cut the number of tanks and performed more regular maintenance some of your problems would go away.
Click to expand...

Cheers Big Clown, I guess it is hard to know how much work others do so it is hard to compare, but I don't think I'm too lazy with maintenance. I actually like doing WC although I am admittedly not too big on cleaning the filters. Since I'm only been an aquatic gardener for a year I guess my problems may be related to me still on a steep learning curve.

Big clown said:
ph profile is the best way to check co2 levels/timing in your tank but the drop checker and only the drop checker will tell you the correct ppm.
the drop checker is likely to have a delay of 1.5-3 hours too so lime green at lights on does not necessarily mean you have enough co2 at lights on.
these are the reasons I use both.
Click to expand...

I'm actually using the pH drop and the DC in largely the same way as you at the moment. But a lime green DC at lights on would indicate enough CO2, right?
 
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