Pinnatifida help

Geoffrey Rea

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26.2mg/l estimated average from water report in the tap. Cut that to a quarter for mixing with three quarters RO, so 6.55mg/l NO3 in the water change water.

Dosing APF’s standard EI measures throughout the week should keep NO3 above 20ppm from the second day. First day I dose micros after water change to take advantage of the very low phosphate levels to aid iron uptake and good estimated calcium to iron ratio. Negates the need for more stable chelated iron sources. If it’s a serious trim seaweed extract for the hormones at water change as well.

TDS starts at the 200-250 at water change and 300-350 on the seventh day before next water change.

If water change is straight tap TDS is always above 400-450 at start of the week.
 
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www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm
Potassium
Pinholes appear which slowly enlarge!.....;)

No. This is WRONG. Potassium deficiency does not appear as pinholes in mature leaves in aquatic plants. This may be true in specific terrestrial plants, but most definitely not in submerged aquatic plants.


I use remineralised RO water, ei dosing, co2 injection and high light.

Don’t know what I’m doing wrong, if anything, but the responses so far suggest it’s one of those particular plants as this is not the only set up where this has happened. Having said that the one constant factor is me!

The pinholes in Hygrophila's in general are likely an induced zinc deficiency from excessive iron fertilization. I don't know what micronutrient mix you're using but I infer that it's very high in Fe relative to all other metals and very low in Zn.
 

Sammy Islam

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No. This is WRONG. Potassium deficiency does not appear as pinholes in mature leaves in aquatic plants. This may be true in specific terrestrial plants, but most definitely not in submerged aquatic plants.




The pinholes in Hygrophila's in general are likely an induced zinc deficiency from excessive iron fertilization. I don't know what micronutrient mix you're using but I infer that it's very high in Fe relative to all other metals and very low in Zn.

I don't really agree with this as recently i've been battling an iron deficiency so i've tried a lot of different things in the last 1.5 months, including dosing high FE 0.2-3ppm per day with different chelates. My pinnatafida is fine and doesn't have any pinholes and bad leaves.

I'm not sure what causes the pinholes and melting, as i've not had much luck pinnatafida in my old tank, but in my new tank it's growing well for once. The only thing different in this tank is that it gets a lot of light, the pinnatafida is in the middle of my tank, halfway up right below the twinstar 900s without any shading.
 

tiger15

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Read Dennis Wong’s profile on the plant. Pin holes are not necessarily caused by K deficiency. Excessive iron can cause it too.

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/plant-guide-hygrophila.html.

I am not sure why so many people failed with this plant. I suspect this plant needs higher light than the profile says. For those who are successful with this plant, what light do you have.
 
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Read Dennis Wong’s profile on the plant. Pin holes are not necessarily caused by K deficiency. Excessive iron can cause it too.

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/plant-guide-hygrophila.html.

I am not sure why so many people failed with this plant. I suspect this plant needs higher light than the profile says. For those who are successful with this plant, what light do you have.

Never heard of high Iron causing pinholes, especially not in case of pinnatifida. Lighting shouldn’t be a problem as sometimes plants in my tank are so overgrown that it’s nearly completely dark at the bottom of the tank where pinnatifida still grows absolutely fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sparkyweasel

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Dennis Wong’s profile, that tiger15 linked to, says that excessive iron can cause curled or twisted leaves. And that "holes in older leaves can be tied to a number of issues, not just potassium" but doesn't say what those issues are. "Many factors contribute to the health of aquatic plants - availability of CO2, as well as all other nutrients" doesn't narrow it down much either.
 
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I don't really agree with this as recently i've been battling an iron deficiency so i've tried a lot of different things in the last 1.5 months, including dosing high FE 0.2-3ppm per day with different chelates. My pinnatafida is fine and doesn't have any pinholes and bad leaves.

Are you inducing a Zn deficiency by dosing Fe? If not, then your experience doesn't actually contradict anything. Key word is induced.

Do we have a source for this?
My experiments. Do you have a source that shows -K results in pinholes in mature leaves other than taking the symptoms of certain terrestrial plants and assuming it also applies to aquatic plants?
 

Sammy Islam

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Are you inducing a Zn deficiency by dosing Fe? If not, then your experience doesn't actually contradict anything. Key word is induced.


My experiments. Do you have a source that shows -K results in pinholes in mature leaves other than taking the symptoms of certain terrestrial plants and assuming it also applies to aquatic plants?

what do you consider high FE? What sort of range to induce a zn deficiency? I would say 2ppm FE is high and most people dose less than 0.8ppm per week. I haven't induced a ZN deficiency even though the ZN dose stayed the same and iron has increased 3 times. Most of us in the UK have very similar water parameters and most of us in the UK also use APF trace salts for our EI solutions and not many have ZN issues regardless of how much iron we have/try to dose. I think most deficiencies are going to stem from MG/FE/CA considering most have over 100ppm CA to begin with.
 
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Witcher

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My experiments. Do you have a source that shows -K results in pinholes in mature leaves other than taking the symptoms of certain terrestrial plants and assuming it also applies to aquatic plants?

I'd love to see your H. pinnatifida, you seem to be an expert in it and I could probably learn a lot from you if you could share more information about it. I also had pinholes in my h. p. plus drooping, yellowing leaves, lack of roots for very long period of time and other stuff including being the only plant in my tank attacked by staghorn-like algae. All these things were gone when I've started to add more potassium in small daily doses and I've noticed h.p. is very K hungry and pinholes caused by lack of K are very very common - definitely one of the most K sensitive plants I've ever had in my tank.

BTW terrestrial and aquatic plants share the same mechanisms of growth and it includes very similar reactions to the ferts they have available - they use exactly the same compounds available on the earth for their growth and development. Moreover, certain terrestrial plants can become an aquatic plants during wet period and other way round. The main difference is that aquatic plants (or certain terrestrial plants in its aquatic form) have less carbon available and because of that they need less of other food (generally speaking).
 

tiger15

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BTW terrestrial and aquatic plants share the same mechanisms of growth and it includes very similar reactions to the ferts they have available - they use exactly the same compounds available on the earth for their growth and development. Moreover, certain terrestrial plants can become an aquatic plants during wet period and other way round. The main difference is that aquatic plants (or certain terrestrial plants in its aquatic form) have less carbon available and because of that they need less of other food (generally speaking).

Even though terrestrial and aquatic plants have nearly identical nutrients requirements, the mechanism of uptake and bio availability of nutrients are sufficiently different that demands different cultural practices. For instance, aquatic plants do not have functional stomata and xylem system so uptake and transport of nutrients is dominated through the water column. Lawn fertilizer is typically high in N and low in K because soil is an effective reservoir for K and uptake is exclusively root based. Aquatic plant fertilizer needs about equal amount of N and K because uptake is predominantly through the water column and not much reserve is available in the substrate. Lawn fertilizing does not require regular micros application as soil contain plenty in reserve. Aquatic plants will suffer quickly if micros is not dosed regularly. Last but not the least, there is big difference in CO2 availability between terrestrial and aquatic plants and thereby good air exchange is critical.
 

Tim Harrison

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I wonder if anybody can shed any light on the following.

I have pinnatifida in my tank from tissue culture attached to ricks and wood. It seems to do well for a while sending out side shoots and growing well then seems to deteriorate. The leave appear to get tiny holes in them and fall off and the stems seems to rot?

I assume the holes may represent some form of deficiency? Everything else in the tank seems to be growing well and not showing any deficiency.. I dose regularly using my own salts micro and macros

Anybody have any thoughts on this?
Thanks
This question has been asked a lot down the years. From what I've gathered, truth is no one really knows why o_O I've read all sorts unsubstantiated explanations as to why H. pinnatifida doesn't grow properly, suffers tissue necrosis, develops pinholes etc. None of them are particularly helpful.

One popular theory is micronutrients toxicity. Micronutrients can be toxic in high concentrations but this is unlikely, and there is often no real evidence to suggest this is true and most explanations don't offer any reference to peer reviewed scientific literature to substantiate the claims. Another theory is micronutrient deficiency preventing the plant uptaking or metabolising K. Yet another is it doesn't like hard water...

I like @Geoffrey Rea explanation above. Either way I've found H. pinnatifida can sometimes be a bit temperamental, it likes high light, high CO2 conc., and it is relatively fertz hungry. Last lot I had developed pinholes. My solution was to up my entire fertz dose, problem solved. No more holes in new leaves.
 

Geoffrey Rea

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I like @Geoffrey Rea explanation above.

It’s what has made sense from personal experience @Tim Harrison . Interested in other people’s experience too just like the OP.

Pinnatifida reminds me of strawberry plants with its runners and how it behaves. If either get cut they react and adapt rapidly:

upload_2020-4-7_17-36-45.jpeg


It’s about survival, not what looks lush in your tank. How you cut Pinnatifida is as important as fertilisation is basically the argument I’m presenting. Stimulation and response.

The suggested target ratios suggested to the OP were just something to try if they were already using RO. Ideal for nutrient uptake for most species from what I’ve seen. But equally tap water with potassium sulphate dosed alongside micros on micro day works well in hard water areas. I just change water every four to six days instead. It gets used in the gardens anyway so double use effectively.
 

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