PopEye at Quarantine

FishWorks

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Hey Folks,

I am planning my second planted tank and want some advice on how to deal with the bacteria that causes PopEye.

My LFS keeps their plants for sale with fishes for sale.
Hypothetically, you could buy plants from your LFS and unknowingly introduce Popeye as you add the new plants in your display tank.

My current plan is to establish the plants in the display tank first, then leave it fishless for 1 month before adding the fishes. Hopefully the bacteria starves to death during that month without a host.

Will the above work?
How do you deal with the Popeye bacteria from Plants at quarantine?

-Harry
 

FishWorks

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To provide a better description, I would like to add my concern as Eye Infections in General like Cloudy Eye, not just Pop Eye.

Also, I am concerned with the Bacteria responsible for Eye Infection hitch hiking on the Plants.

The Fishes I can quarantine separately in a 20 gallon and with Erythromycin ready.

-Harry
 

Tim Harrison

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I really don't think you need to worry about plants as transmitters of fish disease, especially a condition like "Pop Eye" which isn't usually considered to be disease but a sign of an underlying problem like poor water quality.
The bacteria that can cause infection are usually present in tank water anyway, problems occur when fish are stressed and their immune system compromised.
However, if you're still worried shop somewhere else. Many folk buy plants online :)
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I really don't think you need to worry about plants as transmitters of fish disease, especially a condition like "Pop Eye" which isn't usually considered to be disease but a sign of an underlying problem like poor water quality. The bacteria that can cause infection are usually present in tank water anyway, problems occur when fish are stressed and their immune system compromised.
My LFS keeps their plants for sale with fishes for sale. Hypothetically, you could buy plants from your LFS and unknowingly introduce Popeye as you add the new plants in your display tank.
I think it is more a theoretical worry than a real one as well.
with Erythromycin ready.
<"Banned in the UK">.

cheers Darrel
 

alto

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Well worth printing this article and keeping it at hand whenever you’re considering antibiotic (or any medication) use with fish

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084

Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture

Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria, such as Streptococcus species. The vast majority of bacteria that cause disease in fish are gram-negative, so erythromycin should only be used after culture and sensitivity test results confirm it will be effective. Also, erythromycin is not very effective in a bath treatment, and it should only be administered by injection or in feed. Erythromycin is not FDA-approved for use with food fish.


Bath Treatments ie what most hobbyists use

Bath treatments:
Although bath treatments are a popular method of administering antibiotics, much more drug is required to achieve the desired result as compared to oral treatments or injections.
In many cases, even a large amount of antibiotic in the water does not guarantee that enough of it will get into the fish to be an effective treatment.
At the same time, excessive amounts of antibiotic in the water can increase the likelihood of water-borne bacteria developing resistance to that drug.



Furthermore, to avoid poor water quality and any potential toxicity, between 70% and 100% of the water should be changed at the end of each daily treatment and also prior to redosing.

Finally, bath treatments are not recommended in recirculating systems or in any aquarium system where the treated water will contact the biological filter, because the antibiotics may kill or inhibit the nitrifying bacteria in the biological filters (see UF/IFAS Fact Sheet FA-16 Ammonia in Aquatic Systems).
If treating fish in a bath, ideally a separate container should be used, or tanks and vats should be taken off-line during treatment.
In summary, bath treatments should be considered only when the majority of the fish are not eating or when treating primarily external bacterial infections, and fish should be switched to oral medications as soon as they resume eating.
 

alto

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Having said that, I also prefer to buy plants from plant only systems

Recently one of my favourite shops has taken to housing the female Bettas in the plant tanks
I guess they haven’t read the papers discussing the high incidence of Mycobacterium species (all of which are likely to develop into active infection) in Bettas ..... with stress being one of the triggers

Ich can easily be transferred on plants
 

FishWorks

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I really don't think you need to worry about plants as transmitters of fish disease, especially a condition like "Pop Eye" which isn't usually considered to be disease but a sign of an underlying problem like poor water quality.
The bacteria that can cause infection are usually present in tank water anyway, problems occur when fish are stressed and their immune system compromised.
However, if you're still worried shop somewhere else. Many folk buy plants online :)

Tim,

So I should not worry about the plants while the bacteria that cause Eye Infection is ubiquitous?
Whether the symptom be Cloudy Eye or Pop Eye, its simply a matter of keeping the water clean, providing good food and a low stress environment to prevent Eye Infection?

One source said that Eye Infections are usually Gram-Positive and not usually present in aquaria, thus it needs to be treated. However, I do question this since at one point, I had Cardinal Tetras and Otos in a tank with an Algae Explosion. The Otos ate most of the algae but I did not bother cleaning the excess fecal matter. Few days later, my Cardinals had caught Pop Eye.

It could mean this old information is wrong and that the bacteria causing eye infection is always present. or it could mean that it was Gram-negative Popeye.


-Harry
 
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FishWorks

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Well worth printing this article and keeping it at hand whenever you’re considering antibiotic (or any medication) use with fish

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084

Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture




Bath Treatments ie what most hobbyists use

Alto,

Great Article!

I am more concerned with how to deal with plants that are exposed to Eye Infection Bacteria.

From my current knowledge, Eye infections are Gram-Positive and usually not present in aquaria, and when they are, they need to be treated.
Though, now I am starting to see the above does not hold true.
I am being told to keep the water clean, provide good food and a stress free environment.

There is just something about the idea of treating plants with anti-bacterials that seems silly and unnecessary.

-Harry
 
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Tim Harrison

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So I should not worry about the plants while the bacteria that cause Eye Infection is ubiquitous?
Whether the symptom be Cloudy Eye or Pop Eye, its simply a matter of keeping the water clean, providing good food and a low stress environment to prevent Eye Infection?
Well it could be. I'm not a vet, nor by any means an expert in fish disease, so I'm willing to concede that my opinion could well be wrong. However, if I'm not mistaken, infection with a pathogen does not necessarily lead to disease. If a fish's immune system is compromised or its cells damaged by adverse environmental factors, like poor water quality, or if the pathogen finds a way in to the wrong place or mutates, then an infection may occur.

The research published in this paper Bacterial Flora Associated with Diseased Freshwater Ornamental Fish suggests to me, at least, that the above is true since bacterial species known to be facultative fish pathogens may be isolated from fish without apparent symptoms of disease. I guess that is why the bacteria commonly associated with pop eye might be ubiquitous but not always pathogenic, and why conditions like pop eye are not necessarily considered diseases but rather symptoms of an underlying condition.
One source said that Eye Infections are usually Gram-Positive and not usually present in aquaria, thus it needs to be treated. However, I do question this since at one point, I had Cardinal Tetras and Otos in a tank with an Algae Explosion. The Otos ate most of the algae but I did not bother cleaning the excess fecal matter. Few days later, my Cardinals had caught Pop Eye.
Do you have a link to the source, just out of interest ?

 

dw1305

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Hi all,
However, infection with a pathogen does not necessarily lead to disease. If a fish's immune system is compromised or its cells damaged by adverse environmental factors, like poor water quality, or if the pathogen finds a way in to the wrong place or mutates, then an infection may occur. If i'm not mistaken, the research published in this paper Bacterial Flora Associated with Diseased Freshwater Ornamental Fish found that bacterial species that are known facultative fish pathogens may be isolated from fish without apparent symptoms of disease. I guess that is why the bacteria commonly associated with pop eye might be ubiquitous but not always pathogenic, and why conditions like pop eye are not necessarily considered diseases but rather symptoms of an underlying condition.
That one.

cheers Darrel
 

FishWorks

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Well it could be. I'm not a vet, nor by any means an expert in fish disease, so I'm willing to concede that my opinion could well be wrong. However, if I'm not mistaken, infection with a pathogen does not necessarily lead to disease. If a fish's immune system is compromised or its cells damaged by adverse environmental factors, like poor water quality, or if the pathogen finds a way in to the wrong place or mutates, then an infection may occur.

The research published in this paper Bacterial Flora Associated with Diseased Freshwater Ornamental Fish suggests to me, at least, that the above is true since bacterial species known to be facultative fish pathogens may be isolated from fish without apparent symptoms of disease. I guess that is why the bacteria commonly associated with pop eye might be ubiquitous but not always pathogenic, and why conditions like pop eye are not necessarily considered diseases but rather symptoms of an underlying condition.

Do you have a link to the source, just out of interest ?

Tim,

Below is the link on what is misleading
https://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/01/streptococcus-eye-infections.html

I had a look at articles from the University of Florida, and they say that even Gram-Positive Infections are opportunistic, uncommon but aggressive.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I am enlightened.

-Harry
 

Tim Harrison

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I had a look at articles from the University of Florida, and they say that even Gram-Positive Infections are opportunistic, uncommon but aggressive.
This one Streptococcal Infections of Fish and in particular the paragraph below...
Factors Contributing to Disease
Most infectious diseases of fish are opportunistic. This means that the simple presence of the pathogen in the environment of the fish is inadequate to cause a disease outbreak. Other factors usually come into play such that either the pathogen has an advantage over the host or the immune system of the host is compromised in some way, increasing its susceptibility to the pathogen. This phenomenon is often precipitated by stress, and it is discussed in greater detail in IFAS Circular 919, Stress - Its Role in Fish Diseases (http://www.edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa005). Stress often plays a significant role in outbreaks of infectious disease in fish populations. Some stressors that have been associated with Strep outbreaks include high water temperatures (e.g., during the summer), high stocking densities, harvesting or handling, and poor water quality, such as high ammonia or nitrite concentrations
 
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