Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

[aquanoobie]

eg. thought my tank may be low on Ni (Nickel) got the water report did the maths and the Ni levels was acceptable

I also know of RO water users who dont add Ni and yet their tanks are fine, maybe its in substrate or excreted in fish waste etc

Hi
Nickel is everywhere, in soil, in water, in atmosphere, nickel is almost like pollution. Also in cigaret smoke and in foods cooked in stainless steel pots. Simple aerating brings nickel to tank water, comes with fish food too. Also RO water contains nickel.

 

[Easternlethal]

Hi
Nickel is everywhere, in soil, in water, in atmosphere, nickel is almost like pollution. Also in cigaret smoke and in foods cooked in stainless steel pots. Simple aerating brings nickel to tank water, comes with fish food too. Also RO water contains nickel.

right. and RO doesn't actually give you distilled water (some only 85 or 90% pure).. which is what is really needed to fully control micros

 

[Zeus.]

which is what is really needed to fully control micros

Is it possible to control Micros in the ppb in any order of magnitude in our tanks in the real world😬choosing the wrong fish food could throw the balance.

 

[Hufsa]

Do we need to control micros though? We add something that we think is good, cross our fingers and hope for the best. And the rest is watching the plants. Seems simple enough to me.

 

[Tim Harrison]

I do feel this is being over complicated for the sake of complication, but good luck with the experiment, if you follow Filipe Oliveira for example, you will know he practices lean dosing on his tanks too, it's nothing new and to achieve the redder in plants you need to starve the tank of nutrients which he does to good effect.

And me too. I definitely think we're back to rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic....

 

[Hufsa]

Now that everyone has chimed in with their opinion, is there any way we could sort of steer the topic back to the original purpose of this thread?
We still have the Pros and cons thread for those who wish to discuss things further, posting there would be much appreciated by us

 

[Tim Harrison]

Now that everyone has chimed in with their opinion, is there any way we could sort of steer the topic back to the original purpose of this thread?
We still have the Pros and cons thread for those who wish to discuss things further, posting there would be much appreciated by us

That's little unfair @Hufsa, you cant set the rules and then change them mid thread. I think the above two videos help to address the following topics and questions...

Topics and questions that we need to address over time includes:

What do we mean by lean dosing overall... ?

What targets should we dose in terms of NPK and Micros?

What off-the-shelf products are suitable for lean dosing?

What plants are particular suitable for lean dosing and which are not?

How might our maintenance regime change when we apply the lean dosing approach?

What corrective actions do we take if thing starts to go south - such as the appearance of algae, deficiency symptoms etc.

I'm going to double down on my previous comment, we're back to rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, and perhaps even trying to reinvent the wheel....

 

[MichaelJ]

Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic

Tim, Can I use this as the title for my journal? I may start a journal so I can focus my questions and feedback on this experiment within the limits of my own setup.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Tim Harrison]

Haha, feel free. It was actually Darrel that used it first. Journals are always welcome 👍

 

[Zeus.]

We add something that we think is good, cross our fingers and hope for the best. And the rest is watching the plants. Seems simple enough to me.

Sounds like EI dosing to me 💃💃💃

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It was actually Darrel that used it first.

I think my original rationale was that a <"lot of advertising implied things"> that were manifestly untrue, or <"totally irrelevant">, or both, but without ever actually stating anything that was provably wrong in a court of law.

I don't know the original provenance of it as a quote. I heard it and I liked it, because it summed up a lot of the problems people have with fish keeping, mainly because they were just concentrating on the minutiae, and often ignoring <"the wider picture">. From the point of view of this thread I totally agree with @Tim Harrison.

I think we are discussing <"the froth, not the coffee">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

The best explanation I could find for Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic: To do something pointless or insignificant that will soon be overtaken by events, or that contributes nothing to the solution of a current problem.

I hope no one would characterize my honest attempt to grow more challenging stem plants as such

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Tim Harrison]

No not at all Michael. It’s very much commendable that you do so. And like I’ve mentioned before that’s what UKAPS is ultimately about, helping folk grow aquatic plants and to disseminate best practice.

I’m sure you’d agree there’s very little under the sun that’s really new. And this thread has highlighted there are folk out there who perhaps aren’t aware lean dosing is already a thing and has been for many years.

I particularly like that you stress in your op that lean dosing isn’t for those just starting out on their planted tank journey because it could get them in to trouble. That is always worth reiterating.

Either way, I don’t really think we need to look much further beyond the advice of pros like Filipe and perhaps the videos posted above for the answers we’re looking for

 

[MichaelJ]

Sounds like EI dosing to me 💃💃💃

💃💃💃 ? We have dancers now? We are finally making progress here!

.. can we at least agree that:

1. Paying attention to NPK and micro ratios
2. Use of soft to very soft water in terms of KH/GH to promote easier uptake
3. Acidic water to promote uptake and availability
4. The use of Urea/NH4 as opposed to primarily NO3 as a source of Nitrogen.
5. Mature/rich substrate
6. Lower temperature
7. Yes, and relatively smaller amount of NPK and micro fertilizers
(... more ?)

Is at least in combination, something somewhat different than the typical carpet-bombing approach (EI) where you don't really (need to) pay too much attention to water parameters?

Throw us a bone here!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

I think my original rationale was that a <"lot of advertising implied things"> that were manifestly untrue, or <"totally irrelevant">, or both, but without ever actually stating anything that was provably wrong in a court of law.

Lost performative:

As old as the hills.

 

[GreggZ]

I'm going to double down on my previous comment, we're back to rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, and perhaps even trying to reinvent the wheel....

LOL I love this comment! But I think those buying in really do believe they are on to something new.

NOTE: Lean dosing is by some hobbyists considered to be somewhat experimental

I think this is part of the issue. Lean dosing is not controversial, and it's not new. You can easily find great examples (like the videos above) and it works well for the right type of tank. Tom Barr has lean dosing tanks. So do a bunch of other people that I know well.

Correct me if I am wrong but this thread is not really about "lean" dosing, which is simply dosing less nutrients. That's a pretty easy concept. It's really about the "Happi" method which is a VERY specific way of lean dosing, with high light, medium CO2, and "lean" dosing with a specific ingredients, ratios, and "recipes".

What most don't know is that this method has been around for a VERY long time as well. It's not cutting edge, and it's not a new frontier. Happi and his group (Marcel, Sol) have been talking about this for over a decade on multiple different sites. For some reason it's never caught on. Who knows maybe it will be different this time? Keep the updates coming and we will find out.

 

[MichaelJ]

No not at all Michael. It’s very much commendable that you do so.

Hi Tim, Thats appreciated!

And like I’ve mentioned before that’s what UKAPS is ultimately about, helping folk grow aquatic plants and to disseminate best practice.

For sure, thats why a lot - if not all - of us are here I assume.

I’m sure you’d agree there’s very little under the sun that’s really new. And this thread has highlighted there are folk out there who perhaps aren’t aware lean dosing is already a thing and has been for many years.

Well, there is new and "new"... No one here claims that lean dosing is something fundamentally new - as a matter of fact, when doing a bit of research into this I found out its been discussed for ages. Its "new" to me because I've never really been aware of it before @Happi started to get a lot of people (including myself!) riled up about it on this forum back sometimes in the fall of last year. I think its impossible due to the nature of these forums to avoid rehashing old discussions... and sometimes going back to old discussions with fresh eyes reveal something people never thought of in the past - a new perspective, new ideas and what have you... that's very often how progress is made! Yes, sometimes we just end up beating a dead horse.

I particularly like that you stress in your op that lean dosing isn’t for those just starting out on their planted tank journey because it could get them in to trouble. That is always worth reiterating.

Yes and I will keep doing that. For the beginner and casual hobbyist who stops by and wan't advice on fertilizer there is no way I would start talking about soft and acidic water, paying attention to ratios or other esoteric topics that are mostly irrelevant if you just want to grow some easy plants under lower light in straight tap water and give the plants something decent all-round to eat on a regular basis.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[KirstyF]

NOTE: Lean dosing is by some hobbyists considered to be somewhat experimental and possibly comes with several prerequisites that may make it unsuitable for beginners or casual hobbyists. For those who are not interested in experimental approaches UKAPS offers information on plenty of well-tested mainstream fertilizer methods. Also keep in mind that your choice of fertilization method, while important, is only one piece of the vast puzzle that makes a planted aquarium successful!

Can I just highlight the above on the first page of this thread. This states ‘roughly’ that dosing is just one part of a vast puzzle ……so not the be all and end all. That some people consider it to be somewhat experimental, it might not be for ‘newbies’ and that other more ‘mainstream’ info is available…..so we could probably have varying opinions on the specific language used, as lean dosing per se has been knocking around a while, but in the context of the discussion, we do have people actively experimenting with using a particular form of dosing and no pre-qualification that it must be for high light or Low light or Co2 injected or non Co2 injected. Fair warning has been given by the OP and it’s not being pumped as a ‘general’ solution.

I don’t think we can say fairer than that.

No doubt it’s been done before and with varying levels of success which may or may not be related to the dosing and/or other contributing factors.

We can certainly say the same for EI and we talk about that all the time.

We also have people dosing full EI, half EI, hell possibly even lean EI but we aren’t really pinning EI down to a specific classification beyond that broad title.

So just my opinion, but maybe we could let people figure out what it looks like and what’s working for them…..and what isn’t without ‘corralling’ it so much, if that’s the word.

Lean, lean ish, lean column, non-EI - does it matter.

Surely the objective is simply to explore and discuss and learn more about it…..for some it may feel like eastenders on repeat episodes, for others it will be things they never heard before and you only have to watch if it floats ur boat.

If these guys succeed, we’ll have learnt something, if they don’t, we’ll have learnt something! and from what I can see their experiments are still using specified dosing methods as guides and still kinda mixing it up a little. (Well either that or I missed the bit where happi suggested inert substrate 😳😂)

 

[plantnoobdude]

Well, there is new and "new"... No one here claims that lean dosing is something fundamentally new - as a matter of fact, when doing a bit of research into this I found out its been discussed for ages. Its "new" to me because I've never really been aware of it before @Happi started to get a lot of people (including myself!) riled up about it on this forum back sometimes in the fall of last year. I think its impossible due to the nature of these forums to avoid rehashing old discussions... and sometimes going back to old discussions with fresh eyes reveal something people never thought of in the past - a new perspective, new ideas and what have you... that's very often how progress is made! Yes, sometimes we just end up beating a dead horse.

agreed, no one has claimed it is new. infact we have all seen many of maceks pictures, many of these are over 10 years ago, no doubt lean dosing goes further back than that.

 

[Easternlethal]

For me, lean dosing, is not just a set of instructions about parameter (e.g light, macros) like EI, but a change in philosophy where you are trying to get everything just right (no more no less) to achieve what you want (e.g grow plants or less water changes or less hassle with ferts). This involves experimentation, a deep deep understanding of the tank - water, plants, substrate etc and annoying lots of people on forums with silly questions