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Proper attempt

Yeah mate, that's just not good enough at all. This is why the Ludwigia is melting.

From that data, you need to be at least pH 5.3 at Lights on 16:00.

I say "at least because it looks like your KH is very low so it moves easily with small changes in acidity. You'll probably need it to drop to below 5, but try 5.3 as a target value for now.

Try this: remove the grill from the filter inlet and place the diffuser directly under the open tube so that all the bubbles go into the filter. Repeat the measurements. You can start the measurements at gas ON 15:00. The Gas-ON measurement is our reference. From Gas-ON to Lights-ON you need to drop the pH by a full unit. And remember that you are only using one bulb now. Imagine how difficult things will be with two bulbs....

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Yeah mate, that's just not good enough at all. This is why the Ludwigia is melting.

From that data, you need to be at least pH 5.3 at Lights on 16:00.

I say "at least because it looks like your KH is very low so it moves easily with small changes in acidity. You'll probably need it to drop to below 5, but try 5.3 as a target value for now.

Try this: remove the grill from the filter inlet and place the diffuser directly under the open tube so that all the bubbles go into the filter. Repeat the measurements. You can start the measurements at gas ON 15:00. The Gas-ON measurement is our reference. From Gas-ON to Lights-ON you need to drop the pH by a full unit. And remember that you are only using one bulb now. Imagine how difficult things will be with two bulbs....

Cheers,
Click to expand...

With all my respect for you Ceg4048 I need explanation why 5.3 is a target now...?I always thought that pH should remain at 6.8 level so in this case why not raise KH first?I dont want argue with you,and please notice I'm new.Thanks to you I opened my eyes and stopped believing in myths.Thanks in advance.
Regards
Tom
 
Day 7:
I've been at work all day so didnt have a chance to measure anything.
I have placed the diffuser just below the outflow, as you suggested Clive.
Max I can drop my pH is 5.9, no chance any lower then that.
5.3? Is this not gonna hurt the plants?
9903465703_d5b8e2cdce_c.jpg
 
Maybe the amount of co2 you need to drop your pH that much would have an effect on live stock but if you have only plants at the moment you are in a position to pump co2 in at a very high rate. You can ween them off for a while before adding your any fish.

I'm sure Clive will jump in again.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4
 
nanocube said:
With all my respect for you Ceg4048 I need explanation why 5.3 is a target now...?I always thought that pH should remain at 6.8 level so in this case why not raise KH first?I dont want argue with you,and please notice I'm new.Thanks to you I opened my eyes and stopped believing in myths.Thanks in advance. Regards Tom
Click to expand...
Yeah mate, you really need to forget about pH hurting fish or plants. The pH religion is probably the biggest myth we have in this hobby. pH is such a complicated parameter that very few people have a firm grip, and that leaves them vulnerable to scare tactics.

The next time you eat an orange or drink some lemonade...or even fish and chips, squeeze some juice or put a teaspoon of vinegar in a cup of water and measure the pH. You're gonna see that the pH drops very low, but this doesn't hurt when you are eating. Things just taste more tangy. You could try the same trick with pool acid, or battery acid. The pH will be driven to very similar pH HOWEVER, I would suggest that you do NOT put battery acid on your fish and chips!

Therein lies the fundamental paradox of pH. A toxic substance can have exactly the same pH as a benign substance such as a substance that we put in our mouths every day. So the art of pH lies not in the number itself, but in the REASON that the number is there. If the water is driven to a certain pH by a toxic substance then that number is bad, but if the number is there due to non-toxic substance, then the number is not an issue. Of course CO2 is toxic, but the toxicity is not due to the pH in the water column. It's due to the pH of the fishes blood inside the body.

Generally, weak acids like citrus, vinegar and CO2 (which fizzy drinks are loaded with) have no issues even though the pH can be driven to very low numbers. Strong acids however are a different story, and so the toxicity is driven by the substance, not by the resulting pH.

virgojavier said:
What about fauna? I cant imagin keeping some fish in pH 5.3...
Click to expand...

Did you realize that the fish you intend to keep live in waters stained by tannic acids, and which reach pH below 3 in some cases?

Cheers,
 
Last edited:
No worries Clive. Filter is in the other room, so it can burp as much as it wants lol :)
Will try to increase it then.
Day 8:
50% water changed (4l of DI water), CO2 increased.
9920176966_d24a1e4b45_c.jpg

The less demanding plants are showing some signs of grow. Egeria Densa is growing quite fast, Anubias is just about to show his second flower.
Limnophila hippuridoides is also indicating some grow.

Now then.... why Ludwigia which is suppose to be less demanding then Limnophilia is melting?

PS. I have also change 4dKH solution in drop checker, so it is temp a bit darker. Just before the change it was quite lemon.

Regards Lukasz
 
virgojavier said:
Now then.... why Ludwigia which is suppose to be less demanding then Limnophilia is melting?
Click to expand...
Well, the thing is that we really can't see CO2 or flow patterns all that well. At the location where the Ludwigia is, the combination of high PAR and low CO2 availability may be less favorable than the combination of those two key factors are where the other plants are located. The angle that the leaves are, for example, with respect to the flow direction may be unfavorable. There are many environmental factors that we simply do not have the tools to measure, so the only thing we can do is to observe the effects and to correlate the observations to known causal factors.

With the configuration you have now, I would continue to increase the injection until the Ludwigia shows signs of improvement. Liquid carbon addition might also be called for temporarily, except, I believe the Egeria does not respond well to liquid carbon, so inject rate increase is the wisest course.

I can't recall if we talked about removing some of your filter media to improve flow rate, as there have been so many similar cases recently.

After the leaves transition to submerged form they will be more adapted to an aqueous environment so that it will be easier to reduce the injection rate and to reinstall the filter inlet mesh. It will be less damaging to use the second bulb, and so forth. Right now, it's best if you consider the tank to be a hospital ward for deep sea diving accidents...

Cheers,
 
Hi ,
I'm watching this as I too have a low dkh water of 3-4 .
I currently have a steady ph of 6.3 and that drops to ph 5.7-6 at lights on , I have seen great growth etc and fish are very happy .


ceg4048 said:
After the leaves transition to submerged form they will be more adapted to an aqueous environment so that it will be easier to reduce the injection rate and to reinstall the filter inlet mesh.
Cheers,
Click to expand...

Ceg at what point would you suggest that the plants have adjusted to submersed form and by how much in regards to a ph drop at lights on can you lower the injection rate ?
Also If a spray bar is used the full length of the tank and the 10x rule is accounted for, if we was to increase flow (by adding circulation pumps ) would this have a better impact in distributing the co2 thus driving the ph lower without increasing the injection rate ?
Cheers




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Hi Sam,
It's really hard to say exactly. One set of numbers doesn't fit all because of all the variables. Even though the pH drop in your tank produces great results, it won't necessarily translate to another tank because of the number of variables. Generally though, when the plant has reproduced the same number of leaves with the similar surface area, then you are about there. That's just my rule of thumb, not a hard fact. So this might be several weeks or several months. It depends on the plant as well as lighting, rate of growth, CO2, flow, and on, and on. So, for me, if I flooded the tank with a plant that had 20 square cm of emmersed leaves, and then it produces 20 square cm of new submerged leaves, I reckon the transition is about complete. So for example, anubias will take a lot longer time than hygrophilla.

If you start turning up the light, or start dropping the injection rate before the transition is complete then your chances of incurring algae increase on the anubias. For plants like mosses, it's more difficult to tell, but again, I just eyeball the amount of mass, and if it's doubled from when I first flooded it then I reckon it's arrived. This is a very crude rule of thumb, and it's probably over-conservative. Again, that's why I'm never in a hurry to add fish. I can wait 2 months, it's not a big deal for me. Others are less patient though. It's just a matter of managing risk.

Adding more flow might help even if you have already accounted for the 10X rule. This is another difficult question to answer unilaterally. There is a range of flow velocity that is useful. Going above or below that range becomes counterproductive. The range is something like 1-3 knots. However, as plant mass increases it blocks flow so that what was once excessive in a low-plant-mass tank might actually become insufficient as the tank grows in. George Farmer had great results in the past with a 20X rule. All I can say is try it, check your pH profile and see if it works. Sorry I can't be more precise, but generally, the better your flow and distribution technique, the lower you can drop your injection rate, and that definitely helps the fish so it's definitely worth pursuing.

Cheers,
 
Day 9
Have not done the water change today, due to lack of time. The arylic pipe has arrived, so I have drilled some holes. The bar is 50 cm long and I have drilled them every 3 cm. CO2 kicks in now at 14:00, so 2 hours before the lights. Atm pH in the tank is around 5.6 with 4-5 bubbles per second.
9937795963_78f5b1cf26_c.jpg
 
Hi Lukasz,
That certainly looks neater. When we use extended spraybars, I always worry that the velocity of the jets decreases. Not sure if your filter has the muscle to drive the spraybar. When you drop the water level, do the jets make contact with the front glass, or do they fall short?

Cheers,
 
Hardly, I would say they reach about 3/4 of the distance. But I've done some small experiement, I have squeezed the filter sponge from my other tank and then I observed all the debris demonstrating how the flow is being directed. It looks ok in my opinion, flow gets everywhere.
I am still considering purchasing Lilly pipe...

My filter specs are as follows:
For Aquariums: 120-250 Litres
Throughput: 950 l/h

Please dont tell me that it is too weak... I've spent a little fortune on it:p

Regards
Lukasz
 
Ummmmm.......well, companies who make filters don't know anything about plants. The filter rating you see on the filter brochures are for fish, not plants. So that throughput rating you listed, from our point of view, is for a 95 L tank....

For maximum spraybar effectiveness, this is the sort of "reach" you need:
8396953793_920569535d_z.jpg


Cheers,
 
I will take a pic tomorrow during the water change to demonstrate.
I am thinking about different option, what do you think if I could cut the bar in a half and stick it to the left side of the tank? I will defo get a higher pressure in the "nozzles" but is this gonna be enough?

Once again, Thank You for your help Clive!
Lukasz
 
No worries mate,

virgojavier said:
I am thinking about different option, what do you think if I could cut the bar in a half and stick it to the left side of the tank?
Click to expand...
Well, that would leave you with the configuration you had with the green Eheim tube, wouldn't it? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

I think leave it for now because you've had some improvement with the other adjustments we've made even using the cheesy green Eheim.

Normally, when we experiment with DIY spraybars, the idea is to start out with cheap PVC tubing and to try different hole sizes and patterns. Then when we're satisfied we copy the final design on the expensive acrylic. I failed to mention that earlier, and I do apologize.

If we see too much deterioration using this bar then we can switch back to the old Eheim green temporarily.

Lets focus on dropping the pH with injection rate and getting the Ludwigia to cooperate.

Cheers,
 
Day 10:
50% water changed:
9954553576_2c998e8b8a_c.jpg

I have discovered some brown algeas on my staurogyne repens today...
9954787314_c472526e57_c.jpg


Pogostemon erectus looks a bit brownish as well...
9954799896_0a05302223_c.jpg

Nymphaea lotus is growing nicely
9954781685_e083020a6f_c.jpg

Hydrocotyle tripatita
9954807054_17ea18d0f8_c.jpg


Any suggestions? Too much nitrates?
Regards
Lukasz
 
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