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Re-scaping my 200l tank

Hudson,
Sorry that you're still having difficulties with this. Does the tank look anything like the photo in post #9? Also can you remind us of the dosing?

Also, it seems like you were doing OK with the 30% setting of those lights, assuming they are at the same height as they were before. from re-reading those posts it looks like there were a couple of plants that didn't do well and mostly that was carpet plants. With high enough CO2 to be fatal there should not have been that problem. So we have to look at distribution again.

Can you track the movement of the water and see that it's flowing down the glass? Are the holes pointed horizontally? Can you take a series of pH readings before and throughout the photoperiod so we can see how the gas is dissolving? If you can take the water sample from the bottom near the substrate that might help.

Cheers,
 
Why do you think you need to suspend the light further away from the water? How do you think that is affecting things?

Glad you said it was bloody hard work too! What is your litres in there - about 180l?
 
Clive,
Many thanks for your continued interest and help. The basic layout of the tank is the same - I adjusted the bog wood as I figured that was blocking the flow to the back and also sending it off in strange directions. So I changed it to have more of neutral affect.
The lights are the same height - I did think the Bacopa and Giant Vallis were doing better under stronger light and also that everything else was growing faster too. But I dropped it down to 20% before putting in the new plants and then again to 15% after the CO2 near-death experience (I figured I needed to get more CO2 impact and I couldn't increase it any further, I had would have drop the light even further). The carpet plants definately don't do well (the HC went again in 2 wks, even after I left it in the pot so that the shrimps and and re-potting wouldn't upset it). But the flow down the front of the glass and at the front is quite brutal so it definately gets down.

I will try to get some more pics and PH readings over the wkd. How could I get a water sample from the bottom?
 
hudsonpd said:
Why do you think you need to suspend the light further away from the water? How do you think that is affecting things?

Glad you said it was bloody hard work too! What is your litres in there - about 180l?
Click to expand...
hi mate, suspending the light higher should lower the intensity, yep its around 180 ltrs i probably change 100 ltrs of water 2-3 times a week at the moment.
 
hudsonpd said:
I will try to get some more pics and PH readings over the wkd. How could I get a water sample from the bottom?
Click to expand...
Hi mate,
If you're using a pipette or eyedropper then squeeze the bellows and only release when the tip is at the bottom. Or, if using a vial to collect the sample just cover the mouth and release when you reach the bottom then cover again and withdraw. A sample every hour is a good way to see what's happening.

Also have you tried supplementing with Excel or the like?

Cheers,
 
Hi mate,
OK, I got a first reading for PH - apologies if I post quite a lot while I do this! But first reading is about 7.0 The lights have just come on (12) but dradually ramp up over 2 hours. So not really bright yet. I will take another reading in a couple of hours when they are on full. Current photoperiod is about 7 hours in total (precisely, it comes on at 12 ramps up over 2 hours then is on max for 5 hours and dims back down over 2 hours).

Re: EI dosing; I am followng the liquid solutions method outlined here on James' Planted tank James' Planted Tank - Estimative Index Explained - in total I am doding 25ml Macro three times a week and 10ml Micro three times a week. Never dose together anymore.

I haven't tried adding any supplement for CO2. I do have some of the EasyCarbo which I use for my nano.

I will check PH later on and update. Plus try to get some pics either tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks,
Paul
 
OK, missed a few hours being out but next reading for PH taken at 16:30 (4 hours into photoperiod) and its about 6.7-6.5
 
Looking back myself at the previous photos, even the older plants I have (which always grew) are now doing worse than when I started the re-scape. The Bacopa, Giant Vallis have both died back. Which leads me to believe the light needs to go up and I need to improve water quality again, which has dropped back I'm sure. But even then, when the older plants were growing well, the new plants I added always died off.

There are a few new shoots appearing on the few bits left on the latest batch of new plants, so maybe they just need more time to adjust.

I don't know, it just seems a hell of a fight to get not much growth, because even before, all the new plants I added died.
 
At 18:30, the PH was the same as the last reading between 6.7-6.5

I took all readings from the same places - two readings each time (every time they were exactly the same) - one from the bottom, left and the back and one from the bottom towards the back in the middle of the tank, near where the DC is currently located.
 
Final piece of information I've not yet posted is that my CO2 switches on at 09:30, approximately 2.5 hours before the lights start and about 3.5 hours before the lights reach any level of intensity
 
Just going to write down from memory what happened over the last 2 weeks to get to these dead plants.

I bought the plants 3 weeks ago today. The first week, the lights were on 17% and I increased CO2 a bit. All looked ok.

In the 2nd week I dropped the light down to 15% and gradually increased the CO2. On the Friday night (2 weeks in and 1 week ago) I had my 'near fatal' experience of CO2 noticing very odd behaviour from all fish when I got in from work. I quickly took out 2 buckets of water and let the spraybar create lots of surface movement. For the last week, I reduced gas back down and reduced light further to about 13%.

The last week the plants continued to fail and disintegrate. In particular the Ludwiga is all gone but for 1 stem.

A couple of the other plants still have stems and have some new shoots. The Alternanthera has a couple of useful stems left.

I have now upped the lights back to 25% to see if the Bacopa, at least, recovers.
 
Well, it doesn't look like your CO2 diffusion is being effective. If it take 4 hours to drop the pH from 7 to 6.5-6.8 then that means something is really wrong. Flow looks good from the video so it I reckon the timing of the CO2 and the injection rate is an issue. You should try supplementing 2X or 3X the daily bottle suggested Excel dosing in the morning and see how that goes. Also, try a higher injection rate closer to lights on and shut the gas off earlier.

Cheers,
 
Thanks mate. It does just feel like the CO2 is doing nothing with the amount being pumped in.
Any ideas how I could go about cleaning the UP atomiser, maybe that's an issue with the diffusion.
I will also try increasing the injection rate as you say and shutting it off earlier.
 
I had to run a tank for a while with very little light(0.3W/G T8 bulb) until my custom made LEDs arrived.
For that period of time, even one of my floating plants died(literally melted and fell apart) and another one just about made it. And don't see how this was related to CO2, considering it gets its CO2 from air. And same as you, the stem plants faired worst of all, I lost most of them for that period of time, the ones that survived, are the ones that I left floating at the surface after the bottom of the stems melted and they got loose.
I know Ceg won't agree, and I may as well be wrong, but there's a possiblity you do need a bit more light for certain plants, especially that you can actually supplement injected CO2. But this of course would involve changing the entire ferts/CO2 amount too.

And I am sure Ceg may have a better explanation/or objection, but isn't there a scenario where excessive flow like yours on the video may prevent the plants to properly absorb CO2 and nutritients because it just doesn't give them enough time to take it. I know for sure I had an issue with BBA in a high flow area, from a too strong powerhead blowing straight at them. It was causing mechanical damage to the plants too so I had to change that.
I think the most important is the pattern of the flow, so it produces constant/equal flow in all areas of the tank without contradicting itself, rather than having a washing machine for a tank. Seeing where you placed the pot of carpet plants, I wouldn't be surprised if it just went into the filter after the initial melting/adjustment to the tank, hence the strong flow giving it no chance. Have you tried planting some in areas of lower flow(if there are any judging by the video :) )
 
hudsonpd said:
Thanks mate. It does just feel like the CO2 is doing nothing with the amount being pumped in.
Any ideas how I could go about cleaning the UP atomiser, maybe that's an issue with the diffusion.
I will also try increasing the injection rate as you say and shutting it off earlier.
Click to expand...
You can clean the diffuser by filling it with bleach and letting it sit for 5 minutes or so. Then rinse thoroughly.


sciencefiction said:
I know for sure I had an issue with BBA in a high flow area, from a too strong powerhead blowing straight at them. It was causing mechanical damage to the plants too so I had to change that.
Click to expand...
Yes there is an upper limit to the efficacy of flow. If it causes mechanical damage then that is clearly too much, but the flow looks good in the video, and as the plant mass increases this flow will be reduced, so it is better to have a washing machine. The pH readings in the tank clearly indicate that there is a fault with CO2. Using a low bubble rate for a long time does not serve the plants. The target is usually to drop the pH by 1 unit compared to night time values. One only has to target the first 4 or 5 hours of the photoperiod and then the gas can be shut off. So a high initial injection rate which pulls the pH down for a short time is the way to go about it. Then, you shut off the injection and allow the residual CO2 levels to take care of the second half of the photoperiod. All one has to do is to look at the photos in the beginning of the thread to realize that the light setting used at the time was fine. Doubling the intensity quadruples the input energy, so it doesn't take much to satisfy the energy needs of any plant, even the ones that have a higher LCP. But CO2 has to be fixed first, because those plants having higher LCP usually also have higher CO2 compensation points. When CO2 is excellent the plants actually require LESS light to survive.

It's very tempting to conclude that there is not enough light, but that's only because we can see light. We can't see CO2.
CO2 does not move or behave in the same manner in which light behaves, and we can't see where it's concentration is strong or where it is weak. So, we have to DEDUCE the behavior of CO2. That's one of the reasons I mentioned to supplement with liquid carbon. If the plants show improvement with liquid carbon addition then it's a sure sign that CO2 diffusion is not adequate.

Cheers,
 
Thanks for everyone's help last weekend. After reading all of these, on Monday, I set the tank up as follows:

I upped the light (back up to 25% - not quite to the 30% it was at the beginning of this journal).

The CO2 injection period is now shorter and slightly higher than before - coming on slightly later and going off earlier with slightly higher injection during the period.

I also upped the pressure on the CO2 as I know the UP atomizer needs higher pressure to work better - it was at 2 bar and I thought that was ok. Anyway I have upped the pressure to 4 bar which does seem to have had an impact - the bubbles looked smaller and I am actually getting through less CO2 I think in the last week. The DC still turns lime green so I am hoping the higher pressure is improving CO2 diffusion.

I am also supplementing with 2X the recommended daily rate of Easy Carbo first thing in the morning.

This weekend I will take PH readings again to see if CO2 has improved. The first reading from over night (before CO2 comes on) is about 7.3-7.5

There are new shoots on the remaining stems of the new plants (what is left of them) although the Ludwiga has now all gone - the last couple of stems didn't make it through!

Fingers crossed. Will keep you all posted.

Paul
 
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OK, well I've only managed to take sporadic readings over the weekend but I still think I have a bit of a problem with diffusion.

Yesterday was looking positive with it dropping 1.0 within 2 hours of the last post above.

However, today I took a reading just now at 3:30 and it was still only just under 7.0 - after 4 hours on. I think it should have dropped to more like 6.5 in more than that in 4 hours.

Not really sure what is going on tbh or why, even with an UP atomizer the diffusion isn't right. The only thing that changed was I had to change the CO2 bottle to a new one last night. Today it seems to be pumping out loads of the stuff but the reading is still only 7.0!

The only thing to try next is to clean the diffuser. Or swap to a different method of diffusion.

Paul
 
Paul,
Are you sure you don't have a leak? You should check the lines as well as the connections by squirting some washing up fluid+water mix along the length when the gas is on and check for bubbles.

Cheers,
 
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