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really need help now . getting frustrated

plantnoob

Member
Joined
27 Apr 2010
Messages
502
i just cant get my drop checkers green enough , no matter what i do . theres no way i can get my plantys until i can get enough effin co2 in the water :banghead: . this is after 2 and a quarter hours , still too blue to my eyes .

8621841907_168d0e948a.jpg
557965_10201030984959529_213461569_n by mark pettican, on Flickr

perhaps too much surface agitation ? too low an injection rate ? something else ? links are for vids , 1 of surface agitation , 1 of injection rate . really desperate for help here please !

5 April 2013 12:08 | Facebook

5 April 2013 12:06 | Facebook
 
Hi mate I'm no expert and I'm sure some one who is will point you in the right direction but to give them and easy ride what's your setup like? Reg type ect

Also I'm sure it takes around 3 plus hours to get a reading from a drop checker.

Cheers Aron
 
sorry , forgot that part . fluval roma 125 eheim 2213 1400LPH powerhead fire extinguisher co2 , tmc v2 reg , up inline atomiser . whole tank is covered in micro bubbles ,just to confirm , i am using 4dkh bromo blue from aqua essentials in the drop checkers yet they just refuse to turn green for some reason :banghead:
 
so taking 3/12 hours to go green is nothing to worry about then ?
 
No I wouldn't worry.

Saying that, my drop checker at its height is just shy of yellow. I don't have much surface agitation either, so even an hour before CO2 starts, drop checker is dark green.
 
right now , both drop checkers are a nice lime green , that was down near the substrate . i have just moved them both up higher t o make sure levels elsewhere wont be too high for fish . have re-adjusted powerhead slightly too so surface agitation is less .
 
so taking 3/12 hours to go green is nothing to worry about then ?
Hi,
It's all about balancing injection rate with off gassing and uptake rates from plants (when you get them). Some tanks only need 1hr to get upto level, then plant uptake and off gassing keep it from rising to lethal concentrations throughout the photoperiod. Other tanks like my own and martins need a slower injection rate which needs to be started earlier to reach optimum concentrations for lights on but then not rise to lethal concentrations throughout the photoperiod. Plant uptake rates will differ, plant mass effects uptake, lighting intensity dictates co2 demand etc etc, so really every tank is unique and as such co2 needs dialling in, there is no set formula, only guides. Because of this I wouldn't worry too much now about setting a level or about your distribution. When you add plants, hardscape etc it will all change and tuning it to the tank then will be much more important.
Cheerio,
Ady.
 
It's all about balancing injection rate with off gassing and uptake rates from plants

I don't think plants uptake plays any significant role here. I did some measurements and after the lights turn on, the CO2 concentration falls down only by 1 mg/L !!! I don't understand this too well, but it seems that plants absorb only a small fraction from our CO2 supply. This confirms Tom Barr also:
Lights and plant uptake has virtually NO EFFECT. This is because only 1-2% of the CO2 we add actually is delivered to the plant's carbon demand.
So the key to constant levels of CO2 is the amount of degassing (= aeration or surface rippling). How long before lights we should begin to supply the CO2 depends on the injection rate. You can look at my charts: www.prirodni-akvarium.cz.
 
I don't think plants uptake plays any significant role here. I did some measurements and after the lights turn on, the CO2 concentration falls down only by 1 mg/L !!! I don't understand this too well, but it seems that plants absorb only a small fraction from our CO2 supply. This confirms Tom Barr also:

So the key to constant levels of CO2 is the amount of degassing (= aeration or surface rippling). How long before lights we should begin to supply the CO2 depends on the injection rate. You can look at my charts: www.prirodni-akvarium.cz.
Every days a school day :), I didn't know that about the uptake rates of plants, but either way co2 needs dialling to each individual tank as you say off gassing effects concentrations and there are many variables which effect off gassing; surface vegetation, physical plant mass, tank covers, surface agitation, filter type, most likely even tank dimensions and surface area etc. This is why each tank needs dialling in carefully and there is no set rule. Injection rate naturally dictates when you begin the process, but it must be balanced with the depletion of co2 in whatever guise, some need slower but longer injection rates, others can use higher rates. I simply can't get a level of safe and constant co2 without using a slower injection rate set to begin several hours before the photoperiod. Most likely down to the rate of off gassing in my particular tank, but it doesn't seem to change irrelevant of surface agitation or not.....maybe then its down to O2 concentrations also and If I could increase this then I could achieve better co2 levels.
I've read recent posts from Tom about off gassing and O2 concentrations, he advocates wet and dry filters to increase O2, and although these off gas more they help stabilise co2 at high levels which is another consideration to the hobby. It seems in the UK that canister filters are the norm, many have great success with them, but Tom prefers wet and dry trickle filters for the reasons above. Tom has clearly done extensive tests and research, unachievable by many hobbyists....heck, I can't even a afford a decent accurate ph pen which would help confirm what was going on in my tank regards co2. I just need to see what is happening and do the best I can with what I have. I just try to keep it simple with low light, its easier that way :)......although I do want to be able to run a high light set up eventually so I can practice trimming techniques ;) to quote a phrase my mam used to say, "there's only a couple of weeks between a good haircut and a bad one", in my tank that would be months, high light would speed things along so I could trim and retrim without having to look at my mistakes for too long.....but I digress :)
Basically for plantnoob, its important not to get hooked on bubbles per second, they are only a guide, bubble counters differ and tanks differ. The most important thing is achieving good levels of co2 which need tweaking either by duration or injection rate.
Cheerio,
Ady
 
Hi,
It's all about balancing injection rate with off gassing and uptake rates from plants (when you get them). Some tanks only need 1hr to get upto level, then plant uptake and off gassing keep it from rising to lethal concentrations throughout the photoperiod. Other tanks like my own and martins need a slower injection rate which needs to be started earlier to reach optimum concentrations for lights on but then not rise to lethal concentrations throughout the photoperiod. Plant uptake rates will differ, plant mass effects uptake, lighting intensity dictates co2 demand etc etc, so really every tank is unique and as such co2 needs dialling in, there is no set formula, only guides. Because of this I wouldn't worry too much now about setting a level or about your distribution. When you add plants, hardscape etc it will all change and tuning it to the tank then will be much more important.
Cheerio,
Ady.

some sound logic there . i have probably been over obsessing on the whole co2 thing lately . not least because of the fact that when i plant its over £100 worth of plants going in , which i just cant afford to melt and replace ;) . ive got some hardscape coming in the week which will change things yet again , so perhaps a better train of thought would be that im as ready as im going to be , so concentrate on trying to get the cash raised for planting and then worry about tuning it all in to suit then . i just worried because i dont know what the window is for getting things balanced before losing your investment by killing everything :facepalm:
 
I don't think plants uptake plays any significant role here. I did some measurements and after the lights turn on, the CO2 concentration falls down only by 1 mg/L !!! I don't understand this too well, but it seems that plants absorb only a small fraction from our CO2 supply. This confirms Tom Barr also:

So the key to constant levels of CO2 is the amount of degassing (= aeration or surface rippling). How long before lights we should begin to supply the CO2 depends on the injection rate. You can look at my charts: www.prirodni-akvarium.cz.
looks really useful , is there any way i can translate the whole page into english ?
 
Hi,
The thing is when you get your plants the best thing to do is vastly over compensate co2 injection rates whilst you have no livestock. The more the merrier as far as the plants are concerned, they will be having a hard time trying to adapt to life underwater so give them plenty of co2. This can be dialed down slowly later for the addition of fish/shrimp.
Cheerio,
Ady
 
everything is all hooked up and ready to go . ive got the timer plugs , lights/reflectors are fitted , co2 is all plumbed in , substrate is in . ive even got a little 400lph maxijet type powerhead i use for waterchanges that i can chuck in for a bit of extra flow if needed when plants are in . just struggling to come up with enough spare cash for the plants at the moment , which is really starting to get frustrating now :banghead: . for now all i can do is play with the hardscape when it arrives in the next few days , need to get some photos in the journal that has gone a bit stale ;)
 
looks really useful , is there any way i can translate the whole page into english ?

If you can be patient, I'm planning to translate it into english, but recently I'm bussy until the end of April :( .
 
that would be great , im sure it would be helpful to many a noob like myself
 
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