Recently setup dirted tank...looking for thoughts/guidance on approach

[Stubbo]

Sorry in advance for the long post. I'm really looking to see if there is anything I could/should do from the point I'm at now either tweaking or fundamentals to head off the usual total algae take over while the tank tries to find it's balance (which is what I usually see, making it pretty unsightly on and off for the first 6 months or so).

So I've just setup my 3rd tank (after a 60l Superfish Scaper and a Fluval 125). The new tank is a Diversa 300l (120 x 50 x 50cm, approximately 270l after addition of substrate).

I across all three have largely followed the 'Father Fish' method having had reasonable success with this over time (Soil/Peat Moss/Pond Mud first layer mix of circa 2cms with a raft of additives (not selling the product but see [link] for list of additives if interested)...followed by a 5cm-10cm cap of Pool Filter sand). I'm in Essex area and the water is reasonably hard but nothing outrageous...PH of ~ 7 to 7.5, GH 8, KH 10.

For lights I have 2 x Hygger 28w strips raised 2 inches, and 2 x 55w 5000 Lumen Floodlights on a DIY stand about 9 inches from a lid made of twinwall polycarbonate.

I'd say that the tank is moderately well planted currently, all be it the stems are 'early' in their size so aren't well established yet. Planting list is (mostly from K2 Aqua on Ebay):

Anubias Nana
Anubias Barteri
Microsorum Trident
Bacopa Caroliniana
Piptospatha Ridleyi
Cryptocoryne Wendtii green gecko
Ludwigia Glandulosa
Cryptocoryne Petchii
Bucephelandra Sintang (and a couple of other small varieties)
Hydrocotyle Leucocephala
Echinodorus Bleheri
Staurogyne Repens
Alternathera Rosanaervig
Red Tiger Lily
Vallisneria Asiatica
Hygrophila Pinnatifida
Lastly....am waiting on some Hygrophila Difformis to add too.


I've also got a very well established emergent Echinodorus palifolius, and a Peace Lily, Monstera and Devils Ivy in suspended pond baskets as emergent plants, and Water Lettuce as a floating plant across about 1/3rd of the tank surface. There is a good sized piece of Corbo Root (which seems to get algae forming on it like no tomorrow) and then hardscape of Slate.

Stocking wise, I've got 5 angel fish, 6 Peppered Corys, 2 Kribs, and 6 Blue Tetras (all but 4 angels and the Corys have been moved in from the other tanks), as well as 8 small horned nerite snails. Tank was 'Nitrogen cycled' with some Nitrico Goop massaged into the filter (an Eheim Experience 350) and an airstone for extra surface agitation at the opposite end to the filter outlet. Tank is at 25-26 degrees C, and also has some leaf litter (Oak Tree leaves) to try and promote microfauna development as they break down. I'm debating going the Father Fish root of adding leaf material from a local stream for extra biodiversity too.

What I'm really looking for guidance on is start points/suggestions around the current setup, and also the establishment of the below regime:

1. Ferts...I'm of a mind to dose initally with TNC Complete @ 10ml per day. Is this necessary in a soil based, low tech tank like this?
2. Organic Carbon....the tank is low tech, and was wondering if a daily dose of 5ml of Easy Carbo would help the plants establish/ward of the initial algae take over. Would this become a 'forever practice' or get dialled down over time?
3. Lighting period...I've currently got them on way too much I think...the Hygger's for 5 hours on, 2 hours off, 5 hours on, and the Floodlights for 3 hours on, 2 hours off, 3 hours on.

My goal ultimately is to get to 'fewer' water changes...not never, but sparingly as possible as my water source is a garden hose, which I've very little I can do about temperature...and certainly at this time of year a big water change would result in a big temp differential with the water at circa 5-8 degrees. Happy to perform regular plant maintenance.

Anyway, if you've made it this far thanks for reading, and I'd welcome comments/watchouts/'What the hell are you doing's etc.

Some pics to show the build and where I am today attached (with the diatoms and fluffy green algae already starting to make their presence felt on the Anubias etc).

Thanks in advance....really appreciate any feedback.

​

 

[bazz]

Hi and welcome,
You'll not go far wrong having a good read through this thread Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide.
Cheers!

 

[Stubbo]

Hi Bazz,

Thanks for the reply. I did have a read through before posting...it's really good interesting information...I guess I'm looking for some guidance in the application of it, given I'm in a place where some aspects have already been followed, some possibly haven't, and some require some interpretation.

Basically looking for a bit of expert opinion/guidance to avoid making interpretative errors and to try and shortcut some of the rookie mistakes that can come from taking on a whole load of new information and trying to work out how to apply it.

 

[ElleDee]

I don't think it's inevitable to have a period of "total algae take over", but things are always more difficult in the beginning before the microbes and plants get established. But you've hamstrung yourself by commiting to fairly hot soil and few water changes. Maybe that is compatible with Father Fish's method, I don't know the guy, but with all those organics in the water it sounds like algae to me. Is there some way you can store the water from the hose in a container at room temperature for a day so you can change water more frequently during this initial period?

I think the rest of your questions are less consequential, but 1) you probably don't really need fertilizer right now given your soil, but do you have any test kits you can use to report on your water in the tank? I do dose my dirted tanks a little, but I also do large water changes. 2) "Liquid carbon" is better thought of as algaecide rather than any significant amount of carbon. It is a nasty chemical from a human health standpoint and some fish and plants (buce, vallisneria) are very sensitive to it. I prefer to spot dose algae issues with hydrogen peroxide (I don't go over 1 ml of 3% concentration per gallon per day, though that's a pretty conservative dose IIRC). 3) yeah, that photoperiod seems long to me (I do 6-8 hours total depending on the tank), but some people make it work. I'd adjust based on plant/algae growth.

Can you cut your temperature down a degree or two? Many people find that cooler water leads to happier plants and less algae. How are your plants growing now?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS,

I across all three have largely followed the 'Father Fish' method having had reasonable success with this over time (Soil/Peat Moss/Pond Mud first layer mix of circa 2cms with a raft of additives (not selling the product but see [link] for list of additives if interested)...followed by a 5cm-10cm cap of Pool Filter sand).

Personally, I think the "Father Fish" advice is mixed (there are lots of bits I agree with - <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee"> & <"Maq's Substrate Experiment>) but I much prefer a <"low nutrient substrate"> and <"some water changes">.

...... I don't really care about <"which substrate I start with">, if I* leave it relatively undisturbed over time <"natural processes are going to occur">, and I'm pretty sure that is an unalloyed good thing.

*I think the "I" is relevant, when I say "undisturbed" and I really mean undisturbed by me. I have tank janitors (Asellus aquaticus, Crangonyx pseudogracilis, Planorbella duryi, Physella acuta) that shred any surface vegetable matter and presumably eat a lot of the potential fungal and bacterial spores, as well as Melanoides tuberculata and Lumbriculus variegatus within the substrate <"Minimum maintainence">.

Have a look at <"Is expensive bio media worth it?">, <"Walstad revises"> & <"Anoxic filtration: An Interview with Kevin Novak. pecktec video link">.

1. Ferts...I'm of a mind to dose initally with TNC Complete @ 10ml per day. Is this necessary in a soil based, low tech tank like this?

"TNC Complete" is fine. You can use the "Duckweed Index" to indicate when you need to feed your plants <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">

2. Organic Carbon....the tank is low tech, and was wondering if a daily dose of 5ml of Easy Carbo would help the plants establish/ward of the initial algae take over. Would this become a 'forever practice' or get dialled down over time?

You don't need it.

3. Lighting period...I've currently got them on way too much I think...the Hygger's for 5 hours on, 2 hours off, 5 hours on, and the Floodlights for 3 hours on, 2 hours off, 3 hours on.

Opinions vary, some of us use <"a 12 hour day low tech">.

2 x 55w 5000 Lumen Floodlights on a DIY stand about 9 inches from a lid made of twinwall polycarbonate.

Looking at the photos you probably have too much light intensity at the moment for your plant mass. You may have some nutrient deficiency symptoms as well, have a look at @keef321 tank <"Cloudy Water Hazy Water and Algae!">

I'm in Essex area and the water is reasonably hard but nothing outrageous...PH of ~ 7 to 7.5, GH 8, KH 10.

It is probably <"harder, and more alkaline">, than that for <"geological reasons">. You can get <"accurate figures"> from your water supplier.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

Thanks for the reply @ElleDee

I'm only about a week into full planting, but so far all the stems pretty much are showing signs of new/growing aerial roots forming. Given most of what comes from K2 was grown emersed there are no current signs of large scale melting from the crypts or swords, with the swords putting out new leaves. The Anubias which came from my other tanks and had some algae on them already are largely in the same boat, and again with new aerial roots heading towards the substrate from their hardscape positions. The water lettuce is growing/multiplying and I pulled a lot out yesterday as it was heavily diffusing the light (and I've got some red plants that won't enjoy that). I've got new leaves forming on the Red Tiger Lily but with some furry algae/diatoms on the older leaves.

In summary...the plants seem to be growing. My emersed planted emersed plant has sent up two leaves so far to the surface (it was planted about 3 weeks ago before filling the tank) so is seemingly thriving.

I tend to only use Tetra 5 in 1 test strips, and dont put huge stock in repeat testing and am happy with indicative, but nitrates look to be at about 40, nitrites at 0, GH 8 and KH ~ 10.

My TDS is showing at 510 in the new tank, versus 580 in the older more established tank (and my 60l shows at more like 800). Not easy to know what that number really represents though is it? FWIW my TDS straight from the tap is 330.

I probably can cut the water temperature a bit. Don't think I have any species that will be particularly bothered by that.

Re. the light, I have a sky light directly above the tank so cutting the tank lights inside of daylight hours won't truly cut out 'light'...just level of intensity. I've reduced the flood lights (100w total) to 4 hours per day, with the 2 x 28w lights on for 10 hours (all be it with a 3 hour siesta in the middle of the day when light in the tank is lower level, although still of course provided by day light).

Anyway that's current state of affairs. I've got diatom algae forming, dust algae on the glass, and fluffy algae on some surfaces. I've posted a picture to the type of algae I have forming on my wood which is the algae I'm more nervous about...this is the algae I'm more nervous about as is the type that feels could get out of hand if allowed to (and why I've been dosing the glute daily). I like it how it is now, but looks to me like it could keep going and become a long string/hair algae (but I'm no algae expert).

As an aside, I've no problem with some algae...it's all food for microorganisms and is part of getting established....just hoping to avoid the long string algae phase if there is a way to do that.

 

[bazz]

I've posted a picture to the type of algae I have forming on my wood which is the algae I'm more nervous about...this is the algae I'm more nervous about as is the type that feels could get out of hand if allowed to (and why I've been dosing the glute daily).

As far as I'm aware glute is only really effective against red algaes i.e. black beard algae, it has a limited effect on the green algaes.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
You need a lot more plant mass, but as your plants grow in you <"should get some stability"> and things should improve.

Anyway that's current state of affairs. I've got diatom algae forming, dust algae on the glass, and fluffy algae on some surfaces. I've posted a picture to the type of algae I have forming on my wood which is the algae I'm more nervous about...this is the algae I'm more nervous about as is the type that feels could get out of hand if allowed to (and why I've been dosing the glute daily). I like it how it is now, but looks to me like it could keep going and become a long string/hair algae (but I'm no algae expert).

I wouldn't <"worry about the wood">, but I would be worried about the <"Anubias barteri">, it needs a <"lot less light">. If you reduce the light intensity you won't have the algae on the leaves and it should grow bit better.

Have a look at <"Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!">.

Do you have <"any snails?"> They are very useful as <"browsers of the biofilm">.

In terms of the <"Green Algae (Chlorophyta)"> they are really <"plants">, so if conditions are suitable for them, they are suitable for the <"plants you want"> as well.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

Thanks @dw1305 The algae on the leaves of that Barteri are largely carry over from a previous setup. I've got the stronger lights pointing away from that area now and it will be more shaded...should those heavily covered leaves be cut off to encourage new leaves, or just left? At the moment I've got 8 horned nerites in there, and a couple of pond snails which will hopefully multiply and then find their own equilibrium.

As an aside...is there any real concern about UK native inverts like Planaria or small leaches ending up in the tank, or Hydra? I'm not planning on 'ornamental' shrimp of any kind (much as I'd like some cherries or amanos) as the Kribs/Angels would likely demolish them anyway, so is there any great threat posed from them if I go pond dipping and just add whatever I find? Life of all kind is good in there from my perspective as it's all of interest and part of a 'fuller' system? Just interested in the perspective on 'pest' species in that regards.

 

[AlecF]

That's a very high TDS, 510, given angel fish are supposed to prefer below 250ppm, but with your tap water being above that I suppose there's nothing you can do, given you don't use RO water (and I'm not saying you should). Is it common for them to be kept at such a high TDS –general question from newbie?

 

[Stubbo]

@AlecF To be honest not sure. One of them I've had for about 18 months now with no sign of issue from about the size of a 2 pound coin and he's now top to bottom the size of my closed fist. Is the water 'bad' for him? Not sure....but he's been showing all the signs of being ok. The other 4 are new arrivals alongside him in this new tank so time will tell with them.

 

[keef321]

Looking at the photos you probably have too much light intensity at the moment for your plant mass. You may have some nutrient deficiency symptoms as well, have a look at @keef321 tank <"Cloudy Water Hazy Water and Algae!">

I agree with DW1305 you might have some deficiency, unless its the photos, but some leaves look a bit pale. With your hard water values (I have a feeling your PH may be higher than you think, I suggest you let your water degass in a cup for 24 hours then re-test) , I would add some DTPA iron every so often. A friend of mine with a low tech tank (very little water changes), finds a little bit of DTPA iron dosing helpes green up the leaves. Use the frogbit / duckweed index to see if the new leaves go a darker green.

 

[Stubbo]

@keef321 I'm not sure about how 'green' they are or if it's just tannins in the photo making them look a bit yellowed out. Can you tell by looking at water lettuce (I don't have any frogbit currently)?

When I set up the substrate mix, I included Sequestered Iron (this one) as well as Iron Filings/steel nails with the expectation they would oxidise and provide a source of iron over time too (a bit like throwing nails under a hydrangea to increase the iron and change the colour of the flowers).

Given that, is it likely I'd be iron deficient and the plants wold show it this quickly?

Thanks heaps for the guidance - it's really appreciated!

 

[bazz]

Going back a bit I'm interested to know what's increasing your TDS so much

My TDS is showing at 510 in the new tank, versus 580 in the older more established tank (and my 60l shows at more like 800). Not easy to know what that number really represents though is it? FWIW my TDS straight from the tap is 330.

That seems to be a lot of fertz and fish food.
Cheers!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

As an aside...is there any real concern about UK native inverts like Planaria or small leaches ending up in the tank, or Hydra?

Yes, I have all of those. Have a look at this thread <"What are these?"> It is worth reading all the way through. This is specifically for Hydra & Planaria <"Planaria, are they an issue?">.

should those heavily covered leaves be cut off to encourage new leaves, or just left?

That is the problem, I think you have to leave them. The problem is that the algae growth is much, much quicker than the rate at which Anubias barteri produces new leaves. If you shade the plant the algae won't reach <"light compensation point"> (LCP), but the Anubias still will and the algae may be shed.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

@bazz

How would you work it out? Is pretty consistent across all my tanks...even the ones I have had up and running for ages and do little to aside some food and periodic water changes. There is some hardscape in them (seriyu/'rustic' slate), some wood, plants etc.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Can you tell by looking at water lettuce (I don't have any frogbit currently)?

You can to some degree, but a floating plant with a <"leaf green"> leaf makes life easier.

cheers Darrel

 

[bazz]

@bazz

How would you work it out? Is pretty consistent across all my tanks...even the ones I have had up and running for ages and do little to aside some food and periodic water changes. There is some hardscape in them (seriyu/'rustic' slate), some wood, plants etc.

To be honest I'm not sure mate that's why it became an interest, you've got a dirtied tank perhaps something is leaching out from there.
At 330 TDS tap water I doubt Seiru Stone will dissolve in that but I'm not an expert.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I tend to only use Tetra 5 in 1 test strips, and dont put huge stock in repeat testing and am happy with indicative, but nitrates look to be at about 40, nitrites at 0, GH 8 and KH ~ 10.

These are, at best, <"ball-park figures">.

My TDS is showing at 510 in the new tank, versus 580 in the older more established tank (and my 60l shows at more like 800). Not easy to know what that number really represents though is it? FWIW my TDS straight from the tap is 330.

As the others have said those are some fairly large numbers. I like conductivity <"as a measurement"> and your ppm TDS values are actually conductivity values (in micro S / cm) multiplied by a <"conversion factor"> (0.64 or 0.5).

you've got a dirtied tank perhaps something is leaching out from there

That would be my guess.

At 330 TDS tap water I doubt Seiru Stone will dissolve

You have to make some assumptions, but I'm pretty sure you are right, and the water is already <"fully saturated with CaCO3">.

cheers Darrel

 

[ElleDee]

I'm only about a week into full planting, but so far all the stems pretty much are showing signs of new/growing aerial roots forming.

Are your stem plants not also putting out new leaves or just roots? The faster you can replace all the emerged growth with healthy submerged growth the better.

The water lettuce is growing/multiplying and I pulled a lot out yesterday as it was heavily diffusing the light (and I've got some red plants that won't enjoy that). I've got new leaves forming on the Red Tiger Lily but with some furry algae/diatoms on the older leaves.

Keeping your red plants happy needs to be lower down on your priority list. You need healthy, growing plant mass and you can work on improving your reds once things are stable. I understand that you'll need to be constantly thinning your floating plants, but from your description too much light is more of a threat to your tank than not enough. Especially with a sky light...direct sunlight is especially difficult to manage. It looks like there's a lot of indirect light in that room as well.

My TDS is showing at 510 in the new tank, versus 580 in the older more established tank (and my 60l shows at more like 800). Not easy to know what that number really represents though is it? FWIW my TDS straight from the tap is 330.

These numbers suggest that you have a lot leeching from the soil in your new tank (not surprising), but in your old tank you have a lot of accumulated stuff as well, suggesting that you aren't exporting nearly enough waste by either removing plant mass or by water changes. If you are sticking with your tap water I would look at keeping species that like harder water, but you still need to work on keeping your system more in balance so any TDS creep over time is slow and remedied by your infrequent water changes. Some plants are better suited to harder water as well, so that's another thing to look into.

@dw1305 has given you a lot good advice, and I would add more very easy quick growing plants. You have an immature tank with a lot of nutrients in the water column and a lot of light and you need to combat that with as much plant mass as possible. There may be other problems to deal with down the line, but that's your first order of business, as I see it. Again, water changes would be helpful here.