Recently setup dirted tank...looking for thoughts/guidance on approach

[Stubbo]

@ElleDee Yes there are new small leaves forming on the Stem plants so they seem to be growing well enough.

As an aside, why is TDS a problem? The site I usually turn to for general Aquarium Info is Aquarium Science, and the suggestion there was TDS wasn't really a problem (from a fish perspective). Is it just a plants/algae issue? 18.1.4. Softened, RO, DI, TDS

I'll add more plants for sure (subject to funds), including adding the water lettuce back in I scooped out (which has the obvious added benefit of also shading the tank) although I was worried it was stopping surface agitation/movement as it tends to group up.

 

[AlecF]

I think the fact that angel fish are given as having a tolerance up to 250 ppm in TDS probably indicates some issues with 500+. I wonder if you could collect some rainwater to dilute the tap, as well as the other advice people have given.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Keeping your red plants happy needs to be lower down on your priority list. You need healthy, growing plant mass and you can work on improving your reds once things are stable. I understand that you'll need to be constantly thinning your floating plants, but from your description too much light is more of a threat to your tank than not enough. Especially with a sky light...direct sunlight is especially difficult to manage. It looks like there's a lot of indirect light in that room as well.

That one. It is just like first aid, you need to deal with the <"biggest problems first">.

These numbers suggest that you have a lot leeching from the soil in your new tank (not surprising), but in your old tank you have a lot of accumulated stuff as well, suggesting that you aren't exporting nearly enough waste by either removing plant mass or by water changes. If you are sticking with your tap water I would look at keeping species that like harder water, but you still need to work on keeping your system more in balance so any TDS creep over time is slow and remedied by your infrequent water changes. Some plants are better suited to harder water as well, so that's another thing to look into.

and that one.

You have an immature tank with a lot of nutrients in the water column and a lot of light and you need to combat that with as much plant mass as possible. There may be other problems to deal with down the line, but that's your first order of business, as I see it. Again, water changes would be helpful here.

and that one as well.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

@AlecF Can you point me to the link that qualifies this figure?

Also, my TDS meter simply gives a number...the actual make up of that number could be all kinds of things.

Everything I can find on this subject only talks about the probable impact of TDS with respect egg hatch rates/reproduction. If you can point me to an article that is any more than anecdotal or opinion based on the arbitrary TDS number irrespective of WHAT makes up that TDS (especially if it relates to P.Scalare studies in farm-raised animals), then I'll be concerned, but my LFS (and the LFS in my area) are all selling/keeping Angelfish in the local tap water (which my baseline is 330 as described per my TDS meter).

My own anecdotal evidence is I've had no issues with the Corys, Tetras, Angelfish or other soft water fish that I've kept. Fish issues in my tank are at most rare.

In reality the Amazon river where Angelfish originate has TDS reportedly of between 7ppm and 100ppm (of what constituent parts I've no idea). No idea about the fish farms in Asia or wherever Pets at Home are importing their Angelfish from, or the water or systems they're then keeping them in (which no doubt varies between London and the upper reaches of Scotland by example).

I greatly respect the guidance I've been given on the planted tank aspects as requested, and am always open to listen to supported arguments about care of livestock, but citing a random, nice round number from an unspecified source as fact and of being of importance irrespective of makeup or accuracy isn't going to go get me fiddling with my water stability/make up to solve a problem that hasn't happened, and actually moves me away from water that aligns with the water that is prevalent in the local area and in the fish shops that are in it,

Sorry for the rant.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

As an aside, why is TDS a problem? The site I usually turn to for general Aquarium Info is Aquarium Science, and the suggestion there was TDS wasn't really a problem (from a fish perspective). Is it just a plants/algae issue? 18.1.4. Softened, RO, DI, TDS

It just "horses for courses", it really all depends on <"what fish you keep">.

As an example Rift Lake Cichlids? They are happy in hard, alkaline, high conductivity water. If you look at <"Lake Tanganyika"> it has <"plenty, of a wide range of salts"> and if you wanted to keep the <"Soda Lake cichlid"> (Alcolapia alcalipa), you would want <"a lot saltier"> again.

Personally if I used our tap water (about 18dGH & 18 dKH) I'd keep Lake Tanganyika cichlids, but because <"I use rainwater"> I keep soft water fish, and even our rain water is too hard and alkaline for the long term maintenance of <"Parosphromenus spp."> etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

So to summarise:

• Do some water changes
• Cut down on the intensity of light that reaches the tank
• Lay off the glute, use TNC but only when it seems needed given some nutrients will be leaching from the 3 inch sand cap that is over the soil
• Get more fast growing plants/plant mass into the tank
• Try and keep an eye on symptoms of iron deficiency by getting some Frogbit
• Be patient and wait for the balance

Seems a reasonable list to be getting on with. Thanks.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
@Stubbo , honestly we don't have <"anything to sell"> and we aren't <"keyboard warriors">. All you will get from us is what members think is good advice, it is entirely up to you what you do after that. Personally I'm a great believer in KISS solutions and <"if it ain't broke, don't fix it">.

@Tim Harrison wrote <"Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide">, and I wrote <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">, because we thought they would help people become more successful planted tank keepers.

........ and of being of importance irrespective of makeup or accuracy isn't going to go get me fiddling with my water stability/make up to solve a problem that hasn't happened, and actually moves me away from water that aligns with the water that is prevalent in the local area and in the fish shops that are in it,

I don't think we are telling you to <"fiddle with your water">, I'm certainly not.

If I didn't have access to rainwater, I'd use tap water (I look after a lab. so potentially I could use DI water). If I used our tap water I would want the ppm TDS not to creep to far over the <"conductivity datum value">. If you say ~600 micro S. out of the tap, you are probably looking at 800 microS. (~500 ppm TDS) as the absolute top value.

So to summarise:

• Do some water changes
• Cut down on the intensity of light that reaches the tank
• Lay off the glute, use TNC but only when it seems needed given some nutrients will be leaching from the 3 inch sand cap that is over the soil
• Get more fast growing plants/plant mass into the tank
• Try and keep an eye on symptoms of iron deficiency by getting some Frogbit
• Be patient and wait for the balance

Seems a reasonable list to be getting on with.

Perfect.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

Thanks @dw1305 , and I do appreciate your point...sorry for the rant above, and apologies to @AlecF for being spiky.

One last thing...I just measured my PAR at substrate level (with my waterproof phone using Photone App).

With my 'big' lights on but under the canopy of floating plants, light at the substrate was 20 UMOL. Without the floating plants for cover it was 70 UMOL at substrate level, and at the surface under those lights it was 440 UMOL. With the small lights on and no cover it was 35 UMOL at the substrate, and with floating cover and the small lights it was only 15 UMOL.

Substrate to top of water surface is 40 cms approx.

Think this might give better insight into my current light intensity state....does this suggest anything. Seems to me it would suggest that with surface plant cover, the big lights are fine for 'in tank' plants with no CO2...with out them it might be a bit high.

Interested if this gives you any more thoughts on my lights.

Thanks again. It's all interesting learning.

 

[keef321]

@keef321 I'm not sure about how 'green' they are or if it's just tannins in the photo making them look a bit yellowed out. Can you tell by looking at water lettuce (I don't have any frogbit currently)?

When I set up the substrate mix, I included Sequestered Iron (this one) as well as Iron Filings/steel nails with the expectation they would oxidise and provide a source of iron over time too (a bit like throwing nails under a hydrangea to increase the iron and change the colour of the flowers).

Given that, is it likely I'd be iron deficient and the plants wold show it this quickly?

Thanks heaps for the guidance - it's really appreciated!

I’ve only got experience with using frogbit, but I would highly recommend you try it 😀

I notice you have Seiryu stone. I used to have this in my tank, and it increased my KH, and the lower you KH is, as a generalisation, the easier it is to keep the plants happy. I don’t have any experience with low tech, so take into account I inject co2 and that may react with the stone more and increase KH levels & overall TDS. In the end I removed my stone, and it made life easier.

But……each bit of stone is different, your stone may be different to my stone, but it’s worth exploring if you run into problems. I would suggest if you have the time to put some tap water into a container, and check TDS / KH, then add the stone & test it over the coming weeks to see if it increases or not.

My LFS is running a co2 injected tank on Pure RODI, and they do not remineralise the water as they have a seiryu stone scape, and they have to do 50% water change twice a week to keep the KH below 10 😮

 

[Stubbo]

thanks @keef321 That's interesting. The Seiryu stone I have is in a different shape Scape actually....the one the post refers to is only Corbo root and slate for hardscape....although the outside of the Corbo root feels very 'soft' compared to say some azalea root I have in another tank, so wondering if that's why the algae seems to like it so much.

I'll order me up some frogbit, and give it a go. When I've done frogbit on the last I've ended up with an aphid infestation on it though which was annoying.

 

[keef321]

thanks @keef321 That's interesting. The Seiryu stone I have is in a different shape Scape actually....the one the post refers to is only Corbo root and slate for hardscape....although the outside of the Corbo root feels very 'soft' compared to say some azalea root I have in another tank, so wondering if that's why the algae seems to like it so much.

I'll order me up some frogbit, and give it a go. When I've done frogbit on the last I've ended up with an aphid infestation on it though which was annoying.

Get some Tropica culture “one to grow” pots, they are guaranteed pest free 😀

 

[ElleDee]

So to summarise:

• Do some water changes
• Cut down on the intensity of light that reaches the tank
• Lay off the glute, use TNC but only when it seems needed given some nutrients will be leaching from the 3 inch sand cap that is over the soil
• Get more fast growing plants/plant mass into the tank
• Try and keep an eye on symptoms of iron deficiency by getting some Frogbit
• Be patient and wait for the balance

Seems a reasonable list to be getting on with. Thanks.

Yes, this is a good list. I will say that being patient and waiting is incredibly helpful, but if your fundamentals are way off balance won't just happen on its own. You are on the right track though. As you observe your tank you'll learn to read your plants and you might need to change things up over time, especially as your substrate evolves over the first year or two. Learning to do that well is challenging and the difference between a rookie and an expert IMO. It's a skill you'll be honing for as long as you are in the hobby.

But back to TDS. I'm not the tank police and I am not really a believer in hard rules for keeping most livestock and plants anyway. I do think that trying to stick to the recommended water parameters and care makes success come more easily, and if you run into the problems the first step is to go back and take a hard look at where you are stepping outside those recommendations. I also think it's easier to work with the water you have by looking for plants and animals that are a natural fit. But if what you have is working for you, great. We know that aquarium-bred fish often are more flexible about water than their wild relatives, and most of the low tech staple plants are incredibly adaptable as well.

I am a big believer that stability is key for a successful tank though, because although plants are adaptable, it takes them time and energy to optimize their physiologies to the conditions of their tank. This is most obvious when they switch between emersed or submerged leaves, but there are a bunch of different conditional adaptations they can deploy. But if their conditions aren't stable, they can't efficiently deploy their tricks. I also believe that increasing TDS and nitrates can be proxy values for various unwanted substances accumulating in your water. Even things that are generally nontoxic can start to cause problems at a high enough concentration. For these reasons I think changing parameters are more of a concern than a static parameter that's out of the recommended range somewhat.

 

[AlecF]

No worries @Stubbo. I'm not an expert and so, like some others here, I'd more tend to take such a high TDS as indicative of something, e.g. like the soil leeching. I took the angelfish TDS limits from an online article and as you say, the Amazon TDS is much much lower. I had a 100L tank that was regularly over 400 ppm TDS until I realised it was stones from the beach leeching, and I now hover around 200, but I have soft water so that's easier to achieve. If the TDS goes much higher then I know to do a water change and a clean. It's a hint from the water. I did once keep some medaka in a large clay pot with soil and a scrim of sand and that did sometimes get up to 500-600 TDS, which I felt wasn't good. One medaka did take poorly and I wondered if there was a connection. I took down that container. Some of the readings one gets in this hobby aren't accurate, but they can be a useful hint. A tank can seem fine , and fish can, but there may be stresses – again, that was my worry with the medaka I had. As I said when I posted, my comment was more a general enquiry, but I think you've had some very helpful advice from others who know more than I do. Your own summary is great and I'll be interested to see if the TDS comes down.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

....... Last thing...I just measured my PAR at substrate level (with my waterproof phone using Photone App).

With my 'big' lights on but under the canopy of floating plants, light at the substrate was 20 UMOL. Without the floating plants for cover it was 70 UMOL at substrate level, and at the surface under those lights it was 440 UMOL. With the small lights on and no cover it was 35 UMOL at the substrate, and with floating cover and the small lights it was only 15 UMOL.......

I'll add in @oreo57 , he is our resident lighting guru.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Stubbo]

@dw1305 I have grabbed some Solufeed FE11 DTPA. Is there a thread you could point me to that helps me to understand dosing regimen for using this in a low-tech tank? TIA.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have grabbed some Solufeed FE11 DTPA. Is there a thread you could point me to that helps me to understand dosing regimen for using this in a low-tech tank?

You can use the <"Nutrient Dosing Calculator"> to work out an amount. Just choose "11% FeDTPA" as your compound, add in the tank size and aim for ~ 0.2 ppm Fe as your target.

If you are an Excel user? The<"IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator"> will give you a lot more options.

In terms of when to add iron? I'd use the <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about: and why we need to talk about iron (Fe)."> and subsequent post <"We've talked about iron deficiency, but what are going to do about it?">.

This is the effect of turning iron availability on, off and back on again (from "We've talked about iron deficiency, but what are going to do about it?")

This <"Bacopa caroliniana"> belongs to @Lapul and <"shows iron availability being turned back on"> after a period of deficiency. I'll link in the <"Should i start to fertilize?"> thread as it is relevant to iron and well worth a read. You can also see some healthy Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) in the photo.

cheers Darrel