Red Algae/BBA - An Update

[Hufsa]

..But, anything we do to reduce the likelihood of algae outbreaks has got to be worth considering in my book.

I dont think I will be able to convince you (which is totally ok), but my point of view is that these algae "seeds" are everywhere. Instead of fighting for no seeds, make it inhospitable to growth. There wont be an outbreak if the triggering factors are not there. Whatever it may entail it seems that the seeds will be there, but wether or not they will take root is up to you. If you water them a lot and they find fertile ground then yes they will take over. I dont think we disagree on this. But then the PP dip is not really needed is it?
Finding out what constitutes fertile ground for the spores is what we all want to know. As i said I dont have any answers but people with really good plant health will at least not have it on their plants, but sometimes on hardscape. Thats a start I suppose 😅

That's why a ten minute dip in potassium permanganate solution, for example, is a no-brainer.

I think disinfection treatments also carries risks. You could damage the plant or kill it, what if the plant is rare, and you wouldn't be able to replace it? What about mosses and liverworts, do they tolerate the dip like a plant does? These are mostly retorical questions, you dont have to answer

..it typically grows on the edges of leaves where it no doubt has access to a continuous nutrient supply. If the leaves of such plants, e.g. Anubias are not available, then, perhaps BBA is far less likely to grow? Just a thought.

I read somewhere, I dont remember if it was on the aquamax website or somewhere else, that the edge of the leaf is where the plant will suffer first, and leak nutrients. Fertile ground eh?
I also suspect the question about why it likes flow so much might have a simple answer. Because flow brings access to rapid replenishment of nutrients. So it might not be that flow is "bad" and brings BBA, but that flow is inherently more fertile ground, as long as the organism growing there doesn't suffer mechanical damage from it.

I just want to finish the post with that I discuss this in good spirit and I hope I havent seemed confrontational 😊 I always get a bit nervous from discussions

 

[Hufsa]

@jaypeecee I came upon a thought, have you looked into what sort of natural habitats BBA is found, and in what habitats they are not found? Maybe some insight can be gathered from where it likes to grow in nature

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Hufsa

Thanks for your input. The short answer to your question is - yes.

My computer is out of action as of yesterday. So, I'm replying to you on my small Tablet. It's a challenge*, to say the least!

*Too much of a challenge! I'll read any further replies but please excuse my lack of response in the meantime.

JPC

 

[X3NiTH]

Interestingly this application of Maracyn2 will be deleterious to Pseudomonas denitrificans which is an over producer of Cobalamin (Vitamin B12) which coincidentally has a high concentration in the tissues of Rhodophyta. Pseudomonas d. if present will be covering all surfaces in the tank including the plants and it will require a regular supply of Cobalt to over produce Cobalamin specifically in the unoxidised plant available Cobalt(II) form. If there is dissolved organic matter present this can be a larger source for the Cobalt than available in the water column but it will only move to the Cobalt(II) form in an exceptionally low oxygen environment which is exactly what you would get at the interface of thin films of aerobes (Pseudomonas denitrificans) growing on and feasting on dissolved organic matter either from detritus or leaking/decaying plant tissue.

Kill one to starve the other! Unfortunately here in the UK you cannot use antibiotics in this manner but to reduce the incidence of BBA gaining a foothold it’s best to keep dissolved organic matter to a minimum by keeping the tank clean and free of detritus.

 

[kayjo]

I've been trying to find scientific data re freshwater BBA. Not much out there.

One thing I've come across in a few places (scientific papers) is that BBA prefers low light. In the wild, it is found in the shadows or at least that is where it thrives.

I found one study on BBA that defined "low light" as 65 mmoles and high light as 300 mmoles. (Of course Par 65 is not "low light" in an aquarium and is in fact in the range of many aquariums). This study found increased growth rate at 65 mmoles when compared to 300 mmoles.

 

[swyftfeet]

So I have BBA appear in my relatively "sterile" tank. There is no fish load in this tank, it is just starting. I was completely winging it on my start up. I added a couple squirts of MiracleGro and put half sticks of Jobes HousePlant sticks in the kitty litter.
I did have some urea based nitrogen in the miracleGro. My ammonia was about 1.0ppm but has been steadily decreasing.

Some of the plants I bought submerged from LFS so who knows what they had on them, but the tanks there are usually immaculate.

But I have a reatively large rootball from an unkown species dead tree I gathered near a local stream. The BBA is seems to grow only in the areas of high flow on the opposite surface of the wood of the high flow area of the current flow. It has appeared on both the lighted and the unlighted side of the wood.

It has grown on none of the plants, but I have very low light due to the oddball tank height 22". It has only appeared at a depth of 12" or less.

There is no cover on the tank.

 

[jaypeecee]

I've been trying to find scientific data re freshwater BBA. Not much out there.

Hi @kayjo

There are a lot of scientific papers and articles dealing with 'BBA'. What specifically are you looking for? As you are no doubt aware, BBA is an abbreviation/acronym for black brush/black beard algae. These fall into the category of red algae, the vast majority of which are native to marine habitats. A tiny proportion are to be found in freshwater. I suggest that you make a start by looking at the following:

Red algae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then, come back for more!

JPC

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi All,

There seems to be three very common trigger scenarios for BBA, namely High light intensity, fluctuating CO2 levels and high levels of organic waste. The situation can be further aggravated by high or low levels of certain nutrients such as high levels of Fe, but only if the former deficiencies are in play it seems.

If you wish to cultivate BBA the recommended approach, by some, is in fact high light intensity for long hours, and deliberately fluctuating CO2 levels with high levels of Fe dosing... Cultivating BBA - I can definitely see how one could make a cool-looking scape with lots of BBA - any takers?

In hindsight, after quite a bit of a struggle, getting rid of BBA in a low-tech environment turned out to be pretty straight forward in my experience. I've had outbreaks in both my tanks mainly on slow growers and hardscape. I lowered the light intensity a lot (but kept the 12h/day), added floating plants and I started to degas my weekly WC water in order to avoid CO2 fluctuations, by letting the water sit for 12-18 hours (the exact timing will vary depending on the amount of CO2 in the water etc. but when you stop seeing an upward trend in pH its a good indication that the CO2 level have reached the air-water equilibrium found in your low-tech tank). And of course, keeping your tank low on organic waste is an essential component as well - as organic waste can be another unhealthy source of erratic CO2 release and oxygen usage by aerobic bacteria. While it did take a while to work (BBA are stubborn as all heck), I have not seen a speck of BBA in either of my tanks for ages.


Hopefully NO ONE reading this thread starts pummeling their aquariums (including livestock) with prescription drugs against BBA - this is just flat out terrible if not animal cruelty, and the kind of advice that probably should get people banned - well, I don't set the rules and that is probably a good thing and fortunately the amount of reckless individuals here are fairly Infinitesimal.

Attempting to save plants that are suffering from coats of BBA algae in a responsible way is totally legitimate and there is one application of chemicals, that I have tried, that you can use which is 100% safe for your livestock: You remove the badly infected plant from the tank - plants such as Anubias take this treatment fairly well, but its still somewhat of a hit or miss - let the plant dry for a bit and carefully brush the infected plant leaves with Excel or a similar Glutaraldehyde compound. Let it sit for a minute or two, rinse the plant carefully and put it back in the tank. Make sure the Glutaraldehyde DO NOT get in contact with the roots or rhizome as that will most likely kill the plant. Using a 1 cm wide (1/2 inch.) brush works well for the application. You may have to repeat the treatment a couple of times. Leaves that are beyond rescue are better removed from the plant right away - those leaves will just drag down the plant and postpone recovery.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[hypnogogia]

brush the infected plant leaves with Excel or a similar Glutaraldehyde compound.

Alternatively, H2O2 can be used.

 

[kayjo]

Hi @kayjo

There are a lot of scientific papers and articles dealing with 'BBA'. What specifically are you looking for? As you are no doubt aware, BBA is an abbreviation/acronym for black brush/black beard algae. These fall into the category of red algae, the vast majority of which are native to marine habitats. A tiny proportion are to be found in freshwater. I suggest that you make a start by looking at the following:

Red algae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then, come back for more!

JPC

Thanks JCP.

I'm looking for anything pertaining to or relevant to BBA in aquariums. There's plenty of research out there, but not much (I actually haven't found any) pertaining to it's occurrence in freshwater aquariums. I can find many papers relating to red algae and freshwater BBA specifically, but I have found little info so far that I thought was transferabe to aquariums. There are also plenty of articles that authoritatively state "facts" without citing sources, with many people quoting each other around and around, but never citing a source. I did find a study that put BBA in complete darkness for 3 months and it was fine and started growing again when light was reintroduced. I thought this was of interest because I've read that some people try to eliminate it by blocking the light to the aquarium for a few days.

If you search for Audouinella (BBA) on Wiki, you will see a sad page that contains the same "facts" we see in the hobby. "It has been tested for germination and new growth using NO3 and PO4 fertilizers and such results came out negative for a decade's worth of observations.[citation needed] It has been shown to be inducible by limiting and varying the CO2 concentration in planted aquariums.[citation needed] While other possible inducement mechanisms may exists, this is the most consistent and has been shown in many test by aquarists.[citation needed]"

So it's been tested, there's decades worth of testing, but you have no citation for the tests?? I've seen this quote on several web sites. Seems like it's used by many. Why has someone tested this for decades and then kept that research to themselves? I think it's because there is tons of anecdotal information out there, but no actual research.

EDIT: Here is an excellent link from The Barr Report: https://barrreport.com/barr-report-resources/old-newsletters/BarrReportRedAlgae.pdf

 

[Wookii]

There seems to be three very common trigger scenarios for BBA, namely High light intensity, fluctuating CO2 levels and high levels of organic waste.

I personally think there is only one trigger for BBA, and that is the third item on your list, organic waste. The first and second are potential drivers of the third, and still relevant - fluctuating CO2 and excessively high light levels cause plant health issues which can cause them to release additional organic waste from tissue breakdown - but I personally think it is organic waste that BBA thrives on, which is why it seems undeterred by light levels or CO2 levels as other algae are.

For me, there are two keys to preventing BBA. The first is to prevent the build up of organic waste - primarily a) by employing a good water change regime, and b) maximising plant health (with everything that entails using the inputs we have available as aquarists).

The second is to eliminate new growth before it can take a hold. Biofilm grazers are incredible at this, and Ramshorn snails and Neocaridina shrimp would be my top picks. When their populations reach critical mass, they will cover every leaf and surface in an aquarium multiple times a day. Whether they intend to eat microscopic infant BBA (and other algae) growth whilst chowing down on the biofilm or not, I'm not sure, but I believe they are undoubtedly removing it with every pass, long before it ever becomes visible to the human eye. It can be no coincidence that literally the only place in my tanks that I see BBA grow, is on the filter outlet - the one single place the snails and shrimp can't get to.

 

[X3NiTH]

Decided to buy an extensive Tome on the subject because I’m really interested in having a thriving population of macroalgae in my marine aquariums that I can propagate when necessary, culturing freshwater algae though not always by intention will also be an interesting read especially when you consider that you have to add Cobalamin at 1g/L as feed stock!

Sorry I bought the last one on Amazon!

 

[arcturus]

I personally think there is only one trigger for BBA, and that is the third item on your list, organic waste. The first and second are potential drivers of the third, and still relevant - fluctuating CO2 and excessively high light levels cause plant health issues which can cause them to release additional organic waste from tissue breakdown - but I personally think it is organic waste that BBA thrives on, which is why it seems undeterred by light levels or CO2 levels as other algae are.

What about the role of the flow? That factor is not even mentioned in the article and corresponding video. BBA seems to thrive in high flow areas, often near filter outlets. Shouldn't this be one of the areas with a lower concentration of suspended matter and organic waste?

 

[Wookii]

What about the role of the flow? That factor is not even mentioned in the article and corresponding video. BBA seems to thrive in high flow areas, often near filter outlets. Shouldn't this be one of the areas with a lower concentration of suspended matter and organic waste?

Possibly, though in the past I've had BBA appear in many different areas of a tank, irrespective of flow, light or CO2 concentration. If flow is a factor, and the water column has a high level of organic waste - say due to insufficient water changes - it would be more likely to be providing a good continuous stream of that dissolved organic waste than slower flowing/static areas of the tank, perhaps favouring those locations.

 

[X3NiTH]

BBA seems to thrive in high flow areas, often near filter outlets. Shouldn't this be one of the areas with a lower concentration of suspended matter and organic waste?

They receive a constant replenishing stream of nutrition.

 

[arcturus]

They receive a constant replenishing stream of nutrition.

Correct. But not in the form of suspended organic waste but as dissolved nutrients (including CO2). This would mean that if those nutrients are available via other routes (e.g. fertilization), then the presence of organic waste would not be needed to trigger BBA.

 

[X3NiTH]

This would mean that if those nutrients are available via other routes (e.g. fertilization), then the presence of organic waste would not be needed to trigger BBA.

There’s surviving and then there’s thriving. It’s likely that BBA can survive on mineral nutrition alone but appears to thrive when the arriving nutrition is more complexed and at the most fundamental level that would be likely from the waste products of bacteria, but which waste product?

 

[MichaelJ]

Decided to buy an extensive Tome on the subject because I’m really interested in having a thriving population of macroalgae in my marine aquariums that I can propagate when necessary, culturing freshwater algae though not always by intention will also be an interesting read especially when you consider that you have to add Cobalamin at 1g/L as feed stock!

View attachment 181254

Sorry I bought the last one on Amazon!

Hi @X3NiTH Nah.. you can still get on Amazon US A little too far off my realm of interests... If I would be reefer on the other hand.

Possibly, though in the past I've had BBA appear in many different areas of a tank, irrespective of flow, light or CO2 concentration. If flow is a factor, and the water column has a high level of organic waste - say due to insufficient water changes - it would be more likely to be providing a good continuous stream of that dissolved organic waste than slower flowing/static areas of the tank, perhaps favouring those locations.

Hi @Wookii I see what your saying... In my case, the BBA did have a tendency to congregate in lower-flow - if not stale - areas where my slow growers would be - that would likely also have been the areas where I had a larger concentration of organic waste, so that makes sense. High light intensity did have an impact for sure - but of course I was starving my plants by not meeting the CO2 demands (being low tech) with my high light at that time, and likely giving the BBA a better chance to thrive.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[KirstyF]

Sorry I bought the last one on Amazon!

That’s just greedy…..we now expect you to post 1 paragraph per night until it’s all done!! 😂

 

[jaypeecee]

I'm looking for anything pertaining to or relevant to BBA in aquariums. There's plenty of research out there, but not much (I actually haven't found any) pertaining to it's occurrence in freshwater aquariums. I can find many papers relating to red algae and freshwater BBA specifically, but I have found little info so far that I thought was transferabe to aquariums.

Hi @kayjo

I have spent a large part of today digging for, and reading, scientific papers dealing with freshwater red algae. I know from many previous searches that it's generally a fruitless task searching for any related research/investigative work focussed on the aquarium environment. It's not at all surprising - research in any discipline is expensive so who's going to pay for it?

I'll still add some more reading material to your list. Tomorrow, hopefully.

JPC