Red Plants vs. Green Plants

[omermeral]

Hi all,

I launched my first co2 enriched planted tank around 8 months ago and with all the knowledge I learned at this forum things were going pretty smooth. Couple algae blooms, diatom attacks, plant melting etc. which were recovered successfully.

Plants were flourishing and the fish were happy and at certain point something happened and since then it is a downfall. And the tank is not looking healthy.



SPECS

• Tank : w68cm, h38cm, d25cm 65 litres (approx. 17 us gallon)
• Filtration: Eheim 2424 (experience 250) 700 lt/h
• Substrate: JBL ProScape PlantSoil Brown laid on top of JBL ProScape Volcano Mineral
• Lighting: 2x24Watt T5 + EHEIM classic LED daylight 550 mm (12 watt)
• Fertilising: EI dosing via NPK solution + chelated trace.
• Drop checker: JBL CO₂/pH Permanent Test Set (which does not require 4dkh solution)

After the recent melts, leaf loss and algae issues I took some measures to fix the problems.

• Reduced the photoperiod from 8 hours to 5 hours
• Reduced the lighting( Eheim LED is not running anymore)
• Changed the location of CO2 diffuser so it sits right under the filter inflow to create a homogeneous CO2 distribution inside the tank.
• Doubled the EI dosing.
• Doing 60 to 70 percent water changes weekly.

FAUNA

• 1xsiamese beta
• 1xguppy
• 1xalbino bristlenose pleco
• 6x blue diamond neocaridinia.
• Around 10x assassin snails.

FLORA & HEALTH ISSUES

-Ludwigia repens 'Rubin' dropping bottom leaves, holes in bottom leaves, some stems melted entirely. I can observe healthy growth on the tips.


-Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini', never managed to have this plant in healthy condition. Looks like covered with algea entirely and slowly dying.


-Echinodorus 'Bleherae': Never had wide leaves on this one. They were always thin and pointy but with no significant health issues. During the recent melts this one also suffered from structural break downs and working hard to recover.

-Bacopa Caroliniana is growing but having melting issues in the bottom leaves. They start having tiny holes which get bigger, then the leaf changes color to yellow and melts.


-Staurogyne Repens responded well to above changes, it started growing new leaves. Melting stopped.


-Lobelia Cardinalis Mini responded well to changes, leaf dropping stopped and new growth looks healthy.


-Rotala Bonsai is doing okay. Slowly growing, no bottom leaf issues.


-Limnophila Sessiliflora: Fast and steady growth. Responds well to trimming and replanting. Older bottom leaves tend to have a slight brownish tint but I assume this is normal due to ageing.


-Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii': Even though I feel like this is the healthiest plant in the tank the recent veiny look makes me think about I am lacking phosphate. For a reason I feel like this one is absorbing all the nutritients in the water column and other plants are suffering because of the high appetite and huge root structure of this plant. (scape goat theory)


-Dwarf Water Lettuce: During the downfall this plant had yellow tips on it's leaves. Reducing the light and doubling the EI dosing worked fine. Less yellowing visible, new growth is healthier while older leaves keep their original color.

Pogestemon Erectus: Vanished from this tank but same plant doing absolutely fine on my low tech. Used to have healthy growth with new side shoots but melted from bottom and the stems detached from the root structure.


I also observed algae listed below, adding images so if I named them wrong you can help me out.

-Green Dust Algae, GDA


-Black Brush Algae, BBA
(visible on the leaf edges in the images above)

-Blue Green Algae, BGA (limited to a specific small area and not invasive)



So all the symptoms above led me to CO2 flow and distribution issues. But also there are signs to rule this out as well.

-Drop Checker is always on the yellow side. Fish does not show any sign of stress. I placed this in different spots in the tank and always had a yellow.

-PH profile

-@ KH 9dg measured with a PH pen. 1,6 bubble per second (which is quite a lot CO2 for this volume according to basic guidelines)

14:00 7.5 ph
14:30 7.5 ph (CO2 on)
15:00 7.4 ph
15:30 7.3 ph
16:00 7.2 ph
16:30 7.1 ph
17:00 7.0 ph
17:30 6.9 ph (lights on)
19:30 6.8 ph
20:30 6.8 ph
21:30 6.7 ph
22:30 6.9 ph​

- My substrate tends to drop KH value so I did another profile when KH is 7dg

14:00 7.6 ph (CO2 on)
14:30 7.5 ph
15:00 7.4 ph
15:30 7.2 ph
16:00 7.1 ph
16:30 7.0 ph (lights on)
18:00 6.8 ph
19:00 6.8 ph
19:30 6.8 ph
20:00 6.7 ph (CO2 off)
20:30 6.9 ph
21:30 6.9 ph (lights off)
08:00 7.4 ph​

-Flow: The outflow pipe runs through the entire length of the back wall. I am attaching a video where you can see tiny bubbles show a circular flow pattern throughout the tank from the side view. The filter has more than 10x rated flow of the tank volume. The media inside the filter is a blue sponge in one basket, a small volume of bio-balls covered with floss. (the tiny bubbles are due to a water change)

https://player.vimeo.com/video/254204824

To sum it up

My CO2 seems well above 30ppm with a good flow and distribution and most of the green plants recovering and showing good signs of growth (except the bacopa caroliniana). I am ruling out micro and FE deficiencies because new shoots are healthy. EI dosing seems ok because floaters are fine.

Unfortunately the red plants has no signs of improvements, so one or more assumptions I have above is wrong.

Couple thoughts...

I went through the forum for different requirements of red and green plants and the only thing I could find was the amount of iron they needed. Seems like red plants consume more Fe. Since there are no new growth issues I am ruling out Fe deficiency as well.

Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii' is a monster in the tank, with 4 side shoots. It has a massive root structure with a firm grip to the substrate. Is there a chance this plant is sucking up all the yummies in the water column and out competing the others?

The tank receives a slight daylight from the side which is 2 meters away from the tank. This is the same side where the BGA developed. The CO2 amount in the water column reaches to optimal levels around 17:30. But the tank starts receiving a slight daylight starting from 8am. The amount of light is very small but I am curious if this might be a problem. If it is, why this was not an issue before.

Can the substrate replenish from its nutritients? I feel like at some point the plants sucked up all the goodies in the substrate and the downfall started. But this still does not explain the suffering of the red plants.

Here is an image from my low tech tank and plants look much healthier and happier in this one, which is kind of discouraging.


The level of knowledge I have is obviously not enough for further improvement and I am looking forward to hear back your valuable comments.

Many thanks...

 

[Chubbs]

LEDs are incredibly powerful, I have to keep mine at 70% for my front light and 50% for my back light. Tiny bit higher and I had algae issues, now all is well.

Reineckii, I have found very difficult, however, since doing the above mine are now flourishing. They can be slow growing in the wrong conditions and therefore incredibly at risk against algae, once their leaves are covered, growth will almost stop.

Also if your tank receives any form of day light, balance the CO2 for when the plants open up rather than when the lights come on.

 

[omermeral]

Also if your tank receives any form of day light, balance the CO2 for when the plants open up rather than when the lights come on.

I never thought the small amount of light coming through the window would cause CO2 efficiency. But when I think about it, the houseplants grow on the same amount of light with much more access to CO2, so it is definitely considerable amount of lighting. Bacopas are placed where the daylight enters the tank, and they are the only problematic green plants now. Limnophilas are on the same side as well but I think they are much better at processing the available CO2 so they show no problems.

I will change the photoperiod and CO2 emission times and see how it goes.

But how come this was not an issue before?

 

[Chubbs]

Don’t change anything, see when they open and then adjust your CO2 (most people suggest having this start 2 hours before lights on) in your case 2 hours before the plants open, then wait a few weeks see what happens, as plants are slow to adapt to change.

Keep in mind this whole 4 or 8 hours max photoperiod is a slice of nonsense. Mine are on from 11am-11pm (1 hour either side for ramp up/down) it’s about intensity vs duration and balancing this. One size doesn’t fit all in aquatics, so just fine tune your setup. Remember to give the plants time to adjust and don’t change too many things at once as it will be harder to work out what fixed it.

 

[AndreiD]

Add more CO2 , you need ph 6.5 at 17:30 when light comes on, this is your issue

14:00 7.5 ph
14:30 7.5 ph (CO2 on)
15:00 7.4 ph
15:30 7.3 ph
16:00 7.2 ph
16:30 7.1 ph
17:00 7.0 ph
17:30 6.9 ph (lights on) 6.5 needed
19:30 6.8 ph
20:30 6.8 ph
21:30 6.7 ph
22:30 6.9 ph

 

[omermeral]

Don’t change anything, see when they open and then adjust your CO2 (most people suggest having this start 2 hours before lights on) in your case 2 hours before the plants open, then wait a few weeks see what happens, as plants are slow to adapt to change.

My plants open up at 11:00 am, so I have to reach optimal CO2 levels by 11:00. Chubbs do you recommend turning on the tank lights around 12 so it could be a transitional period for the plants?

Since I have many damaged and suffering plants I will keep the photoperiod down to 5 hours just to be on the safe side. Once they recover I can experiment extending the duration.

I am curious about the general practice of photoperiod. Does people who has ambient light in their room turn on their tank lights as soon as the plants open up, or prefer turning the lights on much later maybe before they arrive home. If photoperiod ends 1 hour after I get home thats kind of pity not seeing the tank in its full glory most of the time.

Add more CO2 , you need ph 6.5 at 17:30 when light comes on, this is your issue

I always assumed 1 unit drop in PH is a general guideline due to buffering abilities of different tanks. For example in my tank I can achieve 0,6 PH drop when the KH is 9dg. And there is a 0,9 PH drop when the KH is 7dg with the same injection rates.

Right after a big water change my KH is 9dg and after couple days it drops down to 7dg. The PH profile you quoted is right after a %70 water change.

Can anyone with high KH values (10+) shed some light on this? Are you still pushing for a 1 unit drop or all is fine with smaller drops?


https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/from-tranquility-island-to-a-dutch-touch-200l.30256/

This tank is a whooping 250 liters and gets CO2 at a 2bps rate. Somewhere in the thread the aquascaper mentions he is achieving a 0.6 ph drop (from 7,5ph tap water with 8dg of KH). He also doses Easy Life easy Carbo which kind of explains the minimal injection rates.

I am very aware every bubble counter and piping has a different nature, thus delivering a different volume of CO2 in every bubble so we cannot rely on bps. So yes bps can vary tank to tank but unless this tank produces tomato sized bubbles I am very doubtful if my tiny 65 liters with much less plant density and no significant surface agitation needs more CO2.

AndreiD, don't get me wrong, I don't mean to oppose your thought on this, I am just trying to understand the big picture. (Learning curve )

 

[Chubbs]

Are you able to dim your lights? I’d dim to 40%, then slowly increase 10% each week until you see plants growing well and no algae. That’s how I reached my target.

 

[ceg4048]

Hello,
Generally, you need a 1 pH unit drop by the time the lights are on. I don't see that happening in either of the two profiles. It should not require 3.5 hours to drop the pH, so this means it is likely that an injection rate increase is necessary.
On the other hand, it may also be that your flow/distribution is at fault. It is very difficult to troubleshoot these three factors from long distance. We can only provide you with the guidelines.

Generally, we suggest a 10X tank volume flow rating, which is easy to achieve, but the distribution can only be achieved with experimentation.

I'm not sure why you're worried about the small amount of light coming from the window while at the same time ignoring the fact that you have too much light suspended above the tank. Two T5s plus an LED is simply to much light and even if you are able to achieve the 1 pH unit reduction, it doesn't guarantee you anything if the lighting is over the top. You may need a 1.5 unit drop or more to satisfy the plant's needs.

If you have GDA then you have a serious light issue, no doubt about that.

Cheers,

 

[AndreiD]

Also try to inject co2 at the level that it can reach 1 ph drop in 2 hours, if you can't do that then you have a problem, either you are not injecting the right amount of co2, either you have too much surface agitation and all co2 is wasted

Maybe a picture with the tank can help us to fix your problem

 

[omermeral]

@Chubbs, I don't have the option to dim the light. But I turned of the Eheim LED. I found a way to block the natural light as well.

@Clive, thanks for the input. I have the 10x volume and the outflow pipe is laid out in the back wall of the tank, running through the entire length. I've read your article about the flow many times along with other topics which helped me a lot during troubled times. Much appreciated for the time and effort you are putting into these. They are extremely useful and big thanks for making this information available.

Will do further reduction on the lights (eliminating one T5 bulb) and re-adjust the injection rate.

I am using a Bazooka Atomizer CO2 Diffuser - 50mm which is rated for tanks up to 100 liters. This little device can produce very fine tiny CO2 bubbles but when I crank up the flow to more than 3bps, the size of the bubbles grow much bigger. I think it cannot handle higher volumes for an efficient fine bubble production.

After the adjustments this is my pH profile

15:00 7.4 ph
15:30 7.4 ph (co2 on)
16:00 6.9 ph
16:30 6.4 ph (lights on)
17:30 6.3 ph
18:00 6.3 ph
18:30 6.3 ph

@AndreiD, There is an image of the tank in my first post, when you click the thumbnail it should pop up. Please let me know if you cannot see it.

I reached 1 ph drop in 1 hour. Hope I am not overdoing it. The shrimps and the fish are really active and no signs of gasping. Only bristlenose pleco is kind of motionless but that's usually how she is.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi omer,
Glad the information in he article was helpful.
OK, I had not clicked on the images to make them full size so it was difficult to examine them. I see that you have a spraybar across the back. Fair enough.
It's also good that you were able to get the pH to drop within the hour and to avoid gassing the fish. That should help a lot but may take a little while to see the improvements.
Reducing the light intensity will also make a difference. As mentioned by another poster, LEDs often have a higher output than we might think so on that size tank it should either be used by itself, without the T5s or should be eliminated entirely unless you are prepared to inject massive amounts of CO2 and risking the health of your fish. I think also that your fish will appreciate being exposed to less light. Naturally, the growth rate of the plants will slow down, but I think it's a small price to pay.

I tried find where you listed your injection technique but must have missed it. Are you using an inline reactor/diffuser. Also, from the video it appears almost as if there is a wavemaker mounted on the right side wall on top? It's not really clear. I cannot think why the bubble size should increase so drastically. Is the external device installed before or after the filter?

When you eliminate the excessive lighting, you may find that you can reduce the injection rate without penalty.


Cheers,

 

[omermeral]

Update...

I saw one of the shrimps flipped on it's back, poor thing looked like as if it was having a seizure. I did a %70 water change and all the animals are fine now and enjoying the oxygenated water. Poor things were most likely running for their lives, that's why they looked so active right before it flipped. At that point all the fish were fine. Lesson learned without any casualties.

I am trying to understand why this happened

Because it was a sudden injection (only in an hour) and my CO2 levels actually were not toxic. Animals could not handle the sudden peaking of CO2.
Or CO2 levels were way above shrimp could handle and the duration to reach that concentration has nothing to do with the shrimp flips.

Below you can see an image of the diffuser, the inflow pipe sucks in the co2 bubbles.

 

[AndreiD]

I would move the co2 diffuser from the intake , i don't know how good is that , i tried once but i was not satisfied with the results
I would move it in the spray bar flow so the flow spreads the co2 bubbles around the tank

 

[ceg4048]

CO2 levels were way above shrimp could handle

Yes, shrimp are more susceptible to hypercapnia than fish are.
Animals typically require 24-48 hours to make the adjustments to higher CO2 levels, but they have to survive first.

I would move the co2 diffuser from the intake

No, I disagree. This is the best place for the diffuser. As long as the filter can handle the direct gas injection without too much cavitation or burping then this is the most effective technique.
Unfortunately, this endangers the shrimp so this may require a reduction of injection rate, which is a good thing.

Cheers,

 

[AndreiD]

Yes, shrimp are more susceptible to hypercapnia than fish are.
Animals typically require 24-48 hours to make the adjustments to higher CO2 levels, but they have to survive first.


No, I disagree. This is the best place for the diffuser. As long as the filter can handle the direct gas injection without too much cavitation or burping then this is the most effective technique.
Unfortunately, this endangers the shrimp so this may require a reduction of injection rate, which is a good thing.

Cheers,

I agree with you regarding the diffuser place, but if the filter starts to burp then it's not good, of course, this is the most effective way to dissolve co2 after the cerges reactor but needs some fine tunning 🙂

 

[omermeral]

There are little burps every now and then, nothing major so I will leave the diffuser as it is.

New pH profile below, I had 0,9 drop in 90 minutes. Shrimps are ok this time. I believe extended period for CO2 to reach optimal levels was much easier on them.

14:30 7.4ph
15:00 7.4 ph (co2 on)
15:30 7.0 ph
16:00 6.8 ph
16:30 6.6 ph
17:00 6.5 ph (lights on)
17:30 6.5 ph
18:00 6.5 ph
19:00 6.4 ph
19:30 6.3 ph
20:00 6.4 ph (co2 off)
20:30 6.5 ph
21:00 6.5 ph
22:00 6.6 ph (lights off)
23:00 6.8 ph
24:00 6.8 ph


Will continue like this and update within 2 weeks.
Many thanks everyone for your useful comments.

 

[AndreiD]

Come back in 2 weeks with an update , but now you should see some improvement

 

[omermeral]

No major improvements on the plants but there had been a reduction on the algea.

GDA, bareley visible on the front glass. Almost none.
BGA, never came back after the cleaning.
BBA, no new growth, there are small patches on the dirftwood.


-Ludwigia repens 'Rubin' There are only 2 stems left, and these stems lost 80% of its leaves. Not sure if they can recover past this stage.

-Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini', There is algea free new growth, verry little but giving me hopes. Cut down all the old leaves. This plant really holds on to its leaves compared to Ludwigia.

-Echinodorus 'Bleherae': Due too heavy BBA infestation on the leaves I cut all of them a week ago and this week I saw 4 new leaves coming out from the substrate.

-Bacopa Caroliniana is growing super slow, but still having melting issues in the bottom leaves.



-Staurogyne Repens no melting and no growth

-Lobelia Cardinalis Mini Past sunday I trimmed the suffering leaves to observe the new growth. No bad signs yet. I see tiny healthy new leaves coming out.

-Rotala Bonsai only one stem rotted from the middle. The rest is doing fine. Can observe healthy new growth on the tips. Bottom leaves are doing ok.

-Limnophila Sessiliflora: Since these are fast growers I decided to prune down to the first node to observe the new growth. The pruning done a week ago and they look miserable now. I might have killed them. Will let them stay one more week before uprooting.

-Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii': Much less veiny look. Not sure if this is an improvement or a regular colour development in the lifecycle of the plant.



Below is the current ph profile.

15:00 7.2 ph (co2 on)
15:30 6.8 ph
16:00 6.5 ph
16:30 6.4 ph (lights on)
17:00 6.3 ph
19:00 6.1 ph
19:30 6.1 ph


At the beginning of CO2 injection the colour of the DC is somewhere between green and lime green... This is telling me I already have some valuable amount of CO2 for plants.
On top of that I inject 3bps CO2 with the above profile and for a reason plants are still suffering or recovering. Cannot tell the difference yet.

So what are those plants telling me? It is really annoying not to see a major improvement in 2 weeks.What I am missing here. Maybe more patience? 🙂

 

[Edvet]

If it takes 4 hours to get most CO2 in the water you should look at getting the CO2 better dissolved, lowest pH (most CO2 dissolved) should be at lights on.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Echinodorus 'Bleherae':........During the recent melts this one also suffered from structural break downs and working hard to recover.

That is "plec" damage in the photo (from your Bristlenose).

Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii': Even though I feel like this is the healthiest plant in the tank the recent veiny look makes me think about I am lacking phosphate.

-Lobelia Cardinalis Mini responded well to changes, leaf dropping stopped and new growth looks healthy.

If you don't add any magnesium (Mg)? and your water is very hard (calcium rich)? It is likely to be magnesium deficiency. The interveinal chlorosis you have on your Cryptocoryne, coupled with the loss of older leaves, are likely markers of <"magnesium deficiency">.

This is Mg deficient Sweet Potato (Ipomea batatas), but you get the idea.


cheers Darrel