Rotala / Amannia Bonsai (Melt)

[Paulo Soares]

So here i am again with this little amannia doll..

Good night everyone!

Made another try on Amannia but still melt. For the sixth time... yeeeeeeeeess indeed... sixth time...

But this time i follow some recomendations of this forum and even by Tropica themselves!
This time before i plant i kept the plant in a Breeding Trap inside the tank for a week and she didn´t melt. Do you copy so far? One week in the breeding tap without melting..

So, i tought i could finally plant her. So i did yesterday. I planted on the 30th January at 20 Pm.Today It´s the 31Th and it is 11 am.Now look at the pictures and see how she melted in less then 24 hours.. incredible. I just can´t figure out what´s wrong. Since my last comunication to Tropica (yes i´m speaking with them about this) i change the values in the tank to be as theirs. Therefore the temperature is like Tropica on 25 degrees, and my kh is on 7.
I do estimative index fertilization. And believe me i dose much more than they need... oh believe me on that.. just don´t doubt.

As you can see all others plants are doing and growing fine. Only with this "lady amannia" happens this. THis is the fifth or sixth time or even more.. i lost acount...
But as you can see i´m not the only one who´s suffering from this beauty..
Look at the pictures. Remarcable...

Best regards

SET UP:
96 liter tank
Co2 is opening 2 hours earlier than the light and of course switching off in acordance.
My Co2 makes the PH drop from 8 to 6,8 till lights up.. by the end of the photoperiod is about 6.6.

(So Clive ... this time i guess is not a Co2 issue don´t you think?)

Co2 Cheker in yellow! Not a green lime.. i repeat: yellow! Co2 comanding all the way ...

7 hour photoperiod.
Tropica Substrate with 6 months of living....
Ei ... i can´t even measure... up up! 15 PPM a day...

Lights: 2 times T5 39w with 6500K and 4000 K.

Flow? More than enough! Plants moving in all tank. I can even see the co2 moving right next to the substrate as he comes out of the difuser and even get remaining being sucked by the filter Inflow.

So... what now? and why this only happens with this plant?

I gave up of this plant... enough is enough..

Put some Staurogyne on it´s place.







Best regards my friends.

 

[Deansie]

If you find the answeret me know but I'll not have the perseverance that you have! Lol, thanks for sharing

 

[pepedopolous]

Put some Staurogyne on it´s place.

Don't do that! 'Ammania' is way easier in my experience... 😕

P

 

[parotet]

In another thread I am not able to find other folks (including myself) were having these same issues with this plant. I my case it was actually quite strange because I purchased and planted at the same time other species that were quite demanding in terms of CO2 (such as Rotala macrandra, Pogostemon stellatus or Higrophylla pinnatifida) and they all survived and thrived in my tank. But Ammania sp "bonsai" stems melt in the base (is it called in English the neck of the plant? I mean the part of the stem which is in contact with the substrate). I spent 2 weeks replanting the rotten stems, planting as a result smaller plants each time... until they disappeared. Curiously the rest of the stem was ok and even new leaves were growing. It looked like plants preferred to to be planted but just floating! I purchased these plants at the end of the summer and my LFS moved during that time so I assumed it had not been preserved in good conditions. But other folks reported the same problem. The way to go when you have this problem is: rinse the gel, put your plants in a propagator, let them grow for some weeks and then put them into the tank. Then it looks like a very easy plant to grow... but cannot tell as I have not tried this plant again.

Jordi

 

[Andy Thurston]

In another thread I am not able to find other folks (including myself) were having these same issues with this plant. I my case it was actually quite strange because I purchased and planted at the same time other species that were quite demanding in terms of CO2 (such as Rotala macrandra, Pogostemon stellatus or Higrophylla pinnatifida) and they all survived and thrived in my tank. But Ammania sp "bonsai" stems melt in the base (is it called in English the neck of the plant? I mean the part of the stem which is in contact with the substrate). I spent 2 weeks replanting the rotten stems, planting as a result smaller plants each time... until they disappeared. Curiously the rest of the stem was ok and even new leaves were growing. It looked like plants preferred to to be planted but just floating! I purchased these plants at the end of the summer and my LFS moved during that time so I assumed it had not been preserved in good conditions. But other folks reported the same problem. The way to go when you have this problem is: rinse the gel, put your plants in a propagator, let them grow for some weeks and then put them into the tank. Then it looks like a very easy plant to grow... but cannot tell as I have not tried this plant again.

Jordi

Is this the thread jordi?
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/rotala-ammania-bonsai-melt.35384/
I would say paulo has already read it 😉
Theres a couple more threads but i cant find those🙁

 

[parotet]

Yes, this one!

Jordi

 

[Deansie]

.......

 

[Ryan Thang To]

When i tried this plant in a vitro pot it melted after 2 week but i had some from andy growing emerge and it grew just fine even in no tech shrimp tank. The day i got it i just left it floating for a week and even then it started to grow out of the surfaces lol

a quick picture

no tech


High tech

 

[X3NiTH]

Flow? More than enough! Plants moving in all tank. I can even see the co2 moving right next to the substrate as he comes out of the difuser and even get remaining being sucked by the filter Inflow.

It looked like plants preferred to to be planted but just floating!

Assuming Jordi meant 'preferred NOT to be planted', maybe this is the issue that it's prone to mechanical damage in strong flow and that it would prefer a calmer environ where it can grow a more woody stem to support the upwards growth. The last pic Legytt posted shows a nice woody stem capable of taking some flow, but grown out on the surface like Jordi noted it preferred. Maybe!

🙂

 

[Paulo Soares]

I allready gave up on this Amannia.
Just put here the post in order for everybody who suffers the same issue to see.

All that you´ve writen here and in the post of the Deansie i tryied before. Remember.. i´m strugling with this since may 2014! So i try in to many different ways.

More flow, less flow, diferent positions in the tank, diferent tipes of light /6500K,4000K, 8000 k, 10000k and as i said co2 is more than enough!
Since before December 2014 when i have issues with the flow and the co2 that i´m making changes in the tank tho correct those issues. Since then i started to increase Co2 bit a bit everyday and the fish get used it. Somtimes they were at the top of the water but i let it be. And believe me today i´m injecting co2 in a large scale. The calibrated 4kdh is yellow!
I even managed to decrease my kh. I used to have it on 10 and now is on 7 more close to Tropica values as they suggested! And the water on 25 degrees.

I´m so sorry telling this but for me mother nature is not this hard to understand and deal with.

Why the hell the plant kept alive during an entire week in the breeding trap and has soon i planted she got melted?

What a hell is this? The water is the same! The values or parameters were the same all week! So? Where is the explanation?

If the issue was sometihng related to Co2 or else in the water as soon as i put it in the breeding trap she would do melt anyway. Isn´t that so? This is quite simple for me.

Or she just like to be swimming...
Something´s wrong. And is not about our tanks.

More: not even Tropica can come up with an answer...
And believe me i contact with too many large experience aquarists and they all couldn´t figure out..
Some point the GH and other stuff but then again i repeat the question:

Why the the plant kept alive during an entire week in the breeding trap and has soon i planted she got melted?

This requires a more complex study.. and the answer should come from Tropica. They are the ones that cultivate the plant. Not me.

As for the propagator so i heard and be advise before but i´m not supposed to do it.
Tropica says that all plants are for direct planting. If so they should analise this.

They have my entire set up. Line by line with all measures being done for months with 6 six different brands of testing (Nutrafin, Elos, JBL, Amtra, Sera,APi).
(althouh some people say that these tests are pretty much garbage i believe we need a guideness...)

There´s too much people around the world claiming for this problem, and we all should claim to them as i did.
They must know.

I would like to know in wich country the plants are cultivated and how.. i really do.
You know why?
Cause i received a "Fiissiden Fontanus" with some chinese newspaper in the cup.. (Chinese ?) weird...








Chinese or japanese news...

 

[Pedro Rosa]

Paulo, someone from Tropica can be more precise, but they have plants cultivated in Tropica and others imported from other countries. That's right for that moss and others.

Pedro.

 

[Paulo Soares]

Talvez tenhas apontado a origem do problema Pedro... daí eu ter levantado esse detalhe.
Grande abraço

 

[Mick.Dk]

Just to clarify:
How a Tropica plant is cultivated is ofcourse restricted info - but all Tropica plants have been thoroughly tested before going out to costumers.
If production is somehow changed......plant is again tested, to ensure this has no negative influence on capability to grow.
- most people would be surprised, how many plants (and growing methods) are dismissed in tests............

 

[parotet]

Just to clarify:
How a Tropica plant is cultivated is ofcourse restricted info - but all Tropica plants have been thoroughly tested before going out to costumers.
If production is somehow changed......plant is again tested, to ensure this has no negative influence on capability to grow.
- most people would be surprised, how many plants (and growing methods) are dismissed in tests............

Hi Mick

Any idea of what could be happening with this species? It seems easy once established but some people report problems in the process of putting the plants in their tanks. Any peculiarity we should know?
It's a beautiful plant I definitely want to try again in the future

Jordi

 

[Paulo Soares]

If this only happens to me...i would kept my mouth shut.
I perfectly understand that plants need different treatment or demands, but can not be too many diferent from eachother. The plants we buy it´s not like going from the north pole to desert..

And in a tank where we have it all (fert + lights etc) in more than they need, and even the tank adjusted to equal parameters as Tropica´s as i care of doing, this is really strange.

This happens more than it should with Amannia and also with Utricularia. (one´s classified Advance and the other Medium)

And i remind you again: I´m on this fight for too long now testing in diferent tanks with diferent parameters.

When i mean Tropica should pay attention to this it´s only because as we all know this is not an issue of myself but thousands around the world.

We aquarists are not suposed to be doing engineering manoeuvres (such as propagators and other tricks) to plants.. And they are not blind they follow the foruns and are aware of what is happening. They have a marketing office for shure.
A plant is doing melt repeteadly? They have labs to analise it. They should urgently recolect all possible plants they can and try to figure out what was the problem. For instance Is there a problem from a specific group produced in some country? And try to figure out.

Also Tropica should be more accurate about plant care and needs (In my opinion is to vague). I know they intend to give a guideline but hey: They are SPECIALISTS! We are amateurs. Please teach us.

"A medium need in CO2 is 6-14 mg/L. A high demand in CO2 is approx. 15-25 mg/L."

There´s no point for searching in this forum trying to figure out if this values are true or reliable.. .something we all see in this forum is that it always claim for high stantards of Co2.. much more than Tropica is recomending in their web site. So.. again.. and for instance i really would like to know the specific value of Co2 witch is used by Tropica (cause they know!) .. and that is a vital information for costumers as other type of information. Aquariums tanks are not an hobby anymore in wich we put some ordinary value and expetc to all be going fine.

Bottom line... we all face too many problems for keeping our planted tanks. And there isn´t some many aquaristics with beautiful tanks as i would love to see. In a world of millions we can point a few thousands.. much more people struggling than enjoying. .isn´t that so?

And why? Is mother nature so complicated?

Why brands do not open more "their doors"?

Compliments,

 

[Mick.Dk]

I willhave to do this, in several different posts - sooo many questions.
First of all; yes, Mother Nature IS so complicated.......there is a reason, why so many plant species exist. Each one is better at something, therefore winning competition for survival at a specific place. If all had same preferances/abilities, there would be only one species left; the on best capable of survivingin most places.
This means a lot of plants are way too specialized for most, to grow in a tank. The plants chosen for trade will generally be those, that can adapt to a (more or less) very wide range of conditions.......sinc peoples tank-conditions are really very different.
But ALL plants have a limit, to what they can adapt to. Sometimes it is not possible to foresee such a limitation, before it occure.
Utricularia and Rotala 'bonzai' are not alone. Staurogyne have caused people "gray hairs," too - just to mention one. Of those three, only Utricularia have ever caused me problems, personally.

 

[Mick.Dk]

this is why allmost 100% of tested plant species are dismissed. Not that they can't be grown, not that they aren't attractive - but because they are either not tolerant enough in tank, or because they can't be produced at the cost, costumers will accept paying.
Testing is done by "specialists", right, so the challenge is, to only accept plants, that can be expected to grow for a wide range of tank-keepers. By far most most be capable of growing for "allmost everyone". But "everyone" have different tanks - and even diffetent opinions of how to keep a tank.
- sometimes it just HAS to go wrong, because of some, specific, unknown factor, in some specific, unknown tank.

 

[Paulo Soares]

Yes mick indeed..i almost agree. Just don´t in the Complicated and limited thing.

Nature (plants) always find it´s way.. even in a total field devastated by fire.. they come again.. amazing. They adapt to the environment in order to survive.. not die.

Each one is better at something, therefore winning competition for survival at a specific place

 

[Paulo Soares]

- sometimes it just HAS to go wrong, because of some, specific, unknown factor, in some specific, unknown tank

Now you´re talking.. and could be some factor also with the prodution and not only concerning the tanks.
By the point of viewing things, it´s like we aquarists are always the weakest link in a chain... we have to blame ourselfes if something´s go wrong in the tank.

I´m just trying to open a diferent perspective. maybe it´s not Us. Why do we have to assume that all the goods we buy are a kind of some perfect God´s Make.?

I simple can not acept that anymore. Not before of what i saw and experience. It´s not logical.

 

[Mick.Dk]

Yes mick indeed..i almost agree. Just don´t in the Complicated and limited thing.

Nature (plants) always find it´s way.. even in a total field devastated by fire.. they come again.. amazing. They adapt to the environment in order to survive.. not die.

No they don't - the species best specialized to those environments colonize and prosper.......