Setting Up A New Aquarium - Advice Needed

[mark4785]

There is considerable preliminary details to consider as to why I'm seeking the advice regarding how to set up a new aquarium which I will detail in italics below.

During autumn of 2012, I ordered a custom made open-top aquarium. I filled it up with dechlorinated water, assembled a Fluval 406 external filtration system, added a heater (and set it to 28 degrees C) and also added various rocks (similar to sodalite) and play-sand. I began a fishless cycle, adding 5ppm of pure ammonia every 24 hours until the ammonia concentration depleted to 0 ppm every 24 hours and then added ammonia every 12 hours until this was processed down to 0ppm every 12 hours. I added table spoons of bicarbonate of soda to keep the PH level at 8.2 as I was told this is the optimum PH level when conducting a fishless cycle.

As there were no fish in the aquarium, I saw no reason to clean the filter sponges. Additionally, I didn't want to disturb the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas colonies that were developing on the biological filtration sponges during the fishless cycle, so I also avoided cleaning the sponges for this reason also. Eventually my fishless cycle completed 2 months later (both ammonia and nitrite would be processed down to 0ppm every 12 hours during every day of a given week) but there was a strange orange slime that had developed on the glass and filtration pipes and orange flaky chunks (which resembled skin) were deposited on the substrate and all the filter sponges; it had no smell. Emptying the water contents from the Fluval 406 filter into a bucket revealed millions of extremely small fleshy particles. No matter how hard I tried to remove the slime and flaky substance, the original amount, prior to cleaning, would re-develop 5-6 days later. The substance was removing all oxygen from the water as indicated by a Tetra Oxygen test result and as indicated when 3 black neon tetras died within 5 minutes of being introduced to the problem-tank.

It is only now, in March 2013, after disinfecting the tank twice (with bleach and over 5kg of salt), replacing the substrate, rocks and filter (at a cost of over £200) that the aforementioned substance is no longer growing and spreading.


- With the above details in mind, could it be that in some circumstances, the chemicals that are involved in fishless cycling can cause deadly conditions in the aquarium? Conditions such as no oxygen and what seems to be a persistent, fast-spreading visible orange bacterial growth?

- Also, to avoid the same happening again, is it possible to avoid doing a fishless cycle altogether in favour of heavily stocking the aquarium with plants (ammonia and nitrate is then used a fertiliser by the plants for growth)? Would an un-cycled aquarium, full of plants, be healthy enough to introduce fish into?



I have posted this message on both Fishforums and UKAPs to help get a varied response.


Thanks in advance for any help given!

 

[jacaranda]

In my opinion, a fish in cycle is OK as long as it is managed carefully to prevent suffering for the fish. That just means putting the minimum amount of hardy fish in and doing plenty of water changes.

 

[mark4785]

In my opinion, a fish in cycle is OK as long as it is managed carefully to prevent suffering for the fish. That just means putting the minimum amount of hardy fish in and doing plenty of water changes.

Right ok. So a fish-in cycle is quite risky? I have no intention of putting hardy fish in the said tank so that might cause a few problems. I actually want to stock it with German Blue Rams.

 

[stu_]

Do you know anyone else who keeps fish, and can donate any of their filter media?
Ask your LFS?

 

[jacaranda]

Generally what people do is use hardy fish for the cycle and then once its all done re home the fish, then stock with the fish you really want.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Normally it is ok to start slowly stocking a fully planted (3/4 substrate covered with plants) within a week, however i would almost certainly think doing so with Rams or discus would be a very bad idea. As im sure you know they can be tough to settle in fully mature tanks. I certainly would like to add either for at least a couple of months after filling the tank.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Generally what people do is use hardy fish for the cycle and then once its all done re home the fish, then stock with the fish you really want.

fish in cycling is also bad practice and shouldnt be encouraged unless modified with heavy planting.

 

[jacaranda]

fish in cycling is also bad practice and shouldnt be encouraged unless modified with heavy planting.

Yes I agree, the op stated it would be a fully planted aquarium

 

[mark4785]

Do you know anyone else who keeps fish, and can donate any of their filter media?
Ask your LFS?

Well I have small pieces of biological media that I've added from small internal Fluval filters to my outdoor pond filter system. I guess I could try transferring some of this?

Is there any reason why I should avoid doing a fishless cycle? I mean, has anybody here experienced problems when doing a fishless cycle?

 

[mark4785]

Normally it is ok to start slowly stocking a fully planted (3/4 substrate covered with plants) within a week, however i would almost certainly think doing so with Rams or discus would be a very bad idea. As im sure you know they can be tough to settle in fully mature tanks. I certainly would like to add either for at least a couple of months after filling the tank.

I definitely agree with you here, although I've not had trouble getting them to settle into my mature tank.

I have no issue with doing a fishless cycle. I've completed two cycles before successfully, but my 3rd attempt, was riddled with the problems that I've described in my first post. I can't help but wonder if fishless cycles can, in some situations, cause massive headaches for fish-keepers?

 

[MARKCOUSINS]

What you went through with that slime problem was an absolute nightmare i followed it on the forum.I can only say mate over the last 15 years or so i have started off my number(10aprox)of tanks allways in the same way.Heavily planted from the start with some fast growing plants present which could be removed a bit later on if wished.I allways left it a few weeks before adding fish.Sometimes used filter media from an established tank or even in the case of some smaller tanks have filled them with the water from my 450l main tank.Have never had any real problems with livestock added which have been mostly tetra but also rams,apistogramma,aphyosemion,fighters,threadfin rainbows amongst others.Thats my expierence and how i have gone about it.So i would allways put in a lot of plants first,must add i have never used a leaching substrate such as some of the ADA ones not because i did not want to just because of price and hard to get hold of where i live.Cheers mark

 

[mark4785]

What you went through with that slime problem was an absolute nightmare i followed it on the forum.I can only say mate over the last 15 years or so i have started off my number(10aprox)of tanks allways in the same way.Heavily planted from the start with some fast growing plants present which could be removed a bit later on if wished.I allways left it a few weeks before adding fish.Sometimes used filter media from an established tank or even in the case of some smaller tanks have filled them with the water from my 450l main tank.Have never had any real problems with livestock added which have been mostly tetra but also rams,apistogramma,aphyosemion,fighters,threadfin rainbows amongst others.Thats my expierence and how i have gone about it.So i would allways put in a lot of plants first,must add i have never used a leaching substrate such as some of the ADA ones not because i did not want to just because of price and hard to get hold of where i live.Cheers mark

Thanks for the input.

So just to clarify, you've never done a fishless cycle with pure ammonia?

Did you add plants like Limnophilla sessiliflora (hope I've spelled that correctly)?

 

[MARKCOUSINS]

No mate never done a fishless cycle.I used Hygrophila polysperma,Hygrophila corymbosa,Hydrocotyle leucocephala and Ludwiga repens all fast growers.Limnophila sessiliflora(good spelling!)would be a good one too.Cheers mark

 

[roadmaster]

I definitely agree with you here, although I've not had trouble getting them to settle into my mature tank.

I have no issue with doing a fishless cycle. I've completed two cycles before successfully, but my 3rd attempt, was riddled with the problems that I've described in my first post. I can't help but wonder if fishless cycles can, in some situations, cause massive headaches for fish-keepers?

Many who struggle with fishless cycling using ammonia ,prolong the method by using too much ammonia after nitrites appear.
Is suggested that reducing the ammonia by 1/2 after nitrites appear, will keep the cycling progressing rather than stalling.
Something about too much ammonia actually working against the bacteria we wish to estabish, but I must confess I have not tried it.
In any event ,,I have kept both Discus and Ram's and would were it me,,, (and it ain't) establish the plant's, and let the tank mature for a couple month's before introducing these rather sensitive fish.
Fishless cycling I have done, consisted of tossing a small prawn in the tank and waiting till ammonia.,nitrites, read zero, and nitrates are present.
Can get a bit odiphorous(sp),but water change can solve that, and not interfere with the process to any measureable degree.

 

[mark4785]

Many who struggle with fishless cycling using ammonia ,prolong the method by using too much ammonia after nitrites appear.
Is suggested that reducing the ammonia by 1/2 after nitrites appear, will keep the cycling progressing rather than stalling.
Something about too much ammonia actually working against the bacteria we wish to estabish, but I must confess I have not tried it.
In any event ,,I have kept both Discus and Ram's and would were it me,,, (and it ain't) establish the plant's, and let the tank mature for a couple month's before introducing these rather sensitive fish.
Fishless cycling I have done, consisted of tossing a small prawn in the tank and waiting till ammonia.,nitrites, read zero, and nitrates are present.
Can get a bit odiphorous(sp),but water change can solve that, and not interfere with the process to any measureable degree.

Thanks for putting forward your views.

I guess your saying that ammonia and nitrite will naturally occur in warm water over a lengthy period from plant decay and not all of this ammonia and nitrite will be utilised by the thriving plants for growth, allowing for small colonies of nitrosomonas and nitrobacter to form in the filter to consume the excess. This is something I may try, if I have the patience!


Update: the aquarium glass is still spotless. Water temperature is 28 degrees C so I guess if anything nasty is in there it will have begun to metabolise somewhere by now.

 

[roadmaster]

Too much ammonia effectively poison's the nitrite oxidizing bacteria and cycling process can stall.(Is why most suggest decreasing the ammonia added however regularly, by 1/2 after nitrites appear)
With lot's of plant's,,I would not bother with fishless cycling and liquid ammonia.
Would plant the tank with lot's of fast growing plant's(can remove some later) and nurture the plant's for a few week's,then add a few fish slowly .
Chances are some bacteria will be present on plant's depending on source,and with larger plant mass ,,and not too many fishes at once,,plant's will quickly assimilate ammonia produced by fish.