Still getting brown leaves, i think...

[Rob P]

Hard to tell if new or existing but certain i'm seeing brown edges on some relatively new plants

So, if I am it's diatom right?

Tank has gone through A LOT of changes since I set it up at the end of August, but for at least the last month it's been running consistently as follows...

Tank: 80cm x 35cm x 45cm - Fluval Roma 125
Lighting: TMC Grobeam 600 twin strips (currently rear channel 30% front 25% - was run at 20% both then 25% both for periods of time but doesn't seem to make any difference). On 3pm, 60 minute ramp up, off at 9pm, 60 minute ramp down.
Filtration: Tetratec EX1200 external/60cm rear spraybar. Good sway on all plants.
CO2: Pressurised FE CO2 via inline diffuser on outlet, PH drop 7.5 to 6.3 by lights on and stays there until lights off.
Ferts: EI Ferts (macro: 3.5tsp KNO03, 1.5tsp KH2PO4, 9tsp MgSO4 into 500ml - 40ml macro dosed Sun after 50% water change, Tuesday & Thursday. Micro: 0.75tsp chelated trace into 200ml - 25ml dosed Monday & Wednesday)
Other: Neutro CO2 - 4.5ml dosed daily (standard dose = 5ml per 250L)
Maintenance: 50% weekly water change using length of hosepipe, wafted around over substrate/between plants to remove muck (again, have in the past done 50% every 2 or 3 days but never solved the issue)

No other algae issues in tank, just browning of the leaves.

I'd really like to bottom this and whilst it isn't much and the least i've ever noticed it, it's the one thing that has plagued me continually from the start until getting the tank somewhere near right. Last night I cleaned the filter and removed the floss pad and another foam block to improve flow, but even with these in, flow seemed good (all plants swaying/co2 bubbles hitting the front glass, running down the glass and along the back). I also recommissioned my eheim skimmer last night so that's some extra flow added.

Or, should I just accept a degree of browning on some leaves is normal?

Thanks!

 

[Martin in Holland]

I feel for you bro...it seems that brown algae is a tough one...as you know I have the same problem and couldn't give you advice how to KILL them...

 

[Rob P]

I know, brown algae is the new BBA lol

Should have mentioned i've tried using purigen with disastrous consequences (after a recharge) and not thrown much in the way of cleanup livestock in there, although there's currently 3 Siamese algae eaters (about a month) and 10 Amano's gone in last week. I'm taking a couple of Ottos from off a mate at the weekend...

Surely a lot of people must have had problems with brown algae and know how to beat it in an established tank!

 

[Reuben]

Hi Rob,
As you know I have the same tank, and the same lighting, also using UP atomizer for Co2.

My EI mix is (into 500ml) 6tsp Kno3, 3tsp kh2po4, 6tsp Mgso4 > I dose 20ml alternate days. I've no idea how 'key' this is but Clive approved this combo.
Trace is 2.5tsp into 500ml >20ml dosed alternate days.

Others may correct me here but I have found that when the plant health is good you won't have diatoms.

The most tricky thing to get right for aquatic plants does seem to be Co2 (as I'm sure you are already aware).

I would say if you are confident that your Co2 is good (high) and your plants have what they need (clean water/nutrients) then you are on track.

I would manually remove all the diatom you can (hardscape, glass etc..), perform a large (90%) water change - really trying to vacuum any debris you can. Then do a blackout - but make sure it is totally black in there (I think the phrase (a'la clive) was 'total sensory deprivation' ) even if just for a day (but ideally 3).

Obviously Co2 is off, but before you blackout you dose nutrients (and easycarbo). Post blackout do another 90% water change repeating as above. Then crank your lighting up to 100%!!!

I'd make sure you Co2 level is good (is it coming on 2 hrs before lights?) The lights really are not that powerful - as I was told by Ian holdich and George Farmer more than once, so all else being well you should be okay.

I think even if this goes wrong and results in 'meltdown' it is a better alternative than slowly waiting for the diatoms to depart while your plant growth is very slow (I assume it is slow? At 25% output mine was). If it goes well the plants will grow in and brown algae will be a distant memory!

Here's a thread that is useful which you might of already read I know, but I found re-reading it helpful. Diatom dilemma... | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Best of luck mate.

 

[Rob P]

Thanks for the time taken to reply Reuben Some food for thought...

The EI mix i'm using is from someone else who's had success with it in the same water supply area as me, again approved by Clive. Do you have a rest day with your dosing?

I cleaned my filter Wednesday night again (it's done every couple of weeks) and removed some media as mentioned earlier. I also slightly tweaked CO2 rate up a tad as where it was I was already getting a drop of 1.2 but fish seemed ok. However when I got in last night they were gasping a little, I checked PH and it was 0.1/0.2 lower than norm, so i've backed it off again, we are talking 0.1/0.2 difference measured with electronic PH pen.

I've done (and continue to do) numerous PH profiles and they all look bang on. I'm always at about 7.5 at the start and CO2 is on 2.5hrs before lights, and at lights on it's 6.3 which it holds until lights are well into ramp down. I have to admit it's so disheartening to see the fish react badly (and I lost another Rainbow yesterday which had looked cranky for a while - through this and that i'm down to 5 from 13! Sure gas is directly responsible for 2 or 3 of them ) and I can't possibly see how I can improve on the CO2, but with the aforementioned drop of 1.2 already I don't think I should need to? Makes me question what the hell I am doing.

It's quite frustrating that almost every algae guide seems to brush over brown algae, saying that it's common in new set ups and often disapears by itself, the guides also mention low lighting, but hardly anything mentioned about this occuring in a longer established tank.

Dusko:

Brown Algae (diatoms) are more likely to appear in low-light aquarium and new set-ups, with excess silicate acids (SiO2). Its been known that strong lights make this algae go away, but they might still be seen on lower, shadowed, plant leaves. It can also be found on aquarium glass, gravel and decoration. It can be easily removed manually, since it has a soft/slimy structure. Otos (this catfish relishes this type of algae) and Snails can easily keep this algae in low numbers.

James Algae Guide:

Usually found in newly setup tanks due to silicates and ammonia as the filter and substrate have yet to mature.

Can be vacuumed out or wiped of the glass with a soft cloth. Usually disappears after a few weeks when the tank has matured. Otocinclus will eat it.

Richard at Aqua Essentials:

Cause - too much light. Grows pretty much everywhere and makes plants look dusty. Often found in start up tanks, or those who insist on pummeling their tank with too much light.Remedy - make sure your lighting is kept to a minimum (6 hours per day when you start up) and water changes are frequent (30% minimum once a week). Use a soft sponge to wipe it off the glass and clean glass regularly. In no time this algae will disappear

Richards guide makes mention of excess light, but as you'll know running the TMC's at 20% (which I did for a number of weeks) means very little/slow growth and doesn't stop brown algae from appearing. At 25% the plants grew ok, but still got brown leaves. I'm now at 30% rear and 25% front and growth is still slow. Lights are on for approx 6 hours.

At least with green algaes/BBA/cyano etc there are definitive reasons as to why it's there and what to do to get rid! I've managed to successfully eradicate all green/thread/hair/fuzz etc by doing things 'right', but seeing leaves go brown is really starting to P me off lol

 

[Sacha]

The reason that algae guides "brush over" brown algae is that it's not really algae at all. It's diatoms. Caused by new substrates, excess silica, and LOW light.

It's completely unrelated to nutrients.

Increasing your light period will help. Diatoms thrive in low light.

Apart from that, do weekly 50-60% water changes. Before each change, scrape off as much diatoms as you can see (with filters off). Then immediately do a water change.

Repeat that for a few weeks and it will start to disappear.

 

[darren636]

I get Diatoms. Right now in my high tech. 1.2 watts per litre. I wonder what the Diatoms metabolize. That should provide the answer

 

[Rob P]

The reason that algae guides "brush over" brown algae is that it's not really algae at all. It's diatoms. Caused by new substrates, excess silica, and LOW light.

It's completely unrelated to nutrients.

Increasing your light period will help. Diatoms thrive in low light.

Apart from that, do weekly 50-60% water changes. Before each change, scrape off as much diatoms as you can see (with filters off). Then immediately do a water change.

Repeat that for a few weeks and it will start to disappear.

I've done 50% water changes 3/4 times a week before now over a few weeks, and comprehensive cleaning with it. Like I say, i've shrugged off all other algaes the only thing is never having had a lot of light (except at the start when I had WAY too much for the set up at that time lol).

It's a brave man to increase the lighting, but in a way it seems like the last thing left to try of everything else I have done. FWIW, the brown leaves appear in shaded areas of the tank as well as those directly under the lights.

 

[Rob P]

I get Diatoms. Right now in my high tech. 1.2 watts per litre. I wonder what the Diatoms metabolize. That should provide the answer

Is this in an established tank Darren?

 

[darren636]

Is this in an established tank Darren?

no. But used many times

 

[Sacha]

I had diatoms for about 8 months. They eventually disappear. Increasing the light should help.

 

[Martin in Holland]

wow....more light, less light, what do diatoms eat...it seems to be a difficult one to tackle if it's not going away "by itself" after a while....
I am currently doing the lower/ less light treatment, if this doesn't show any improvement after 4 weeks I will do the full light treatment and hope I won't get other algae problems

 

[Reuben]

Richard at Aqua Essentials: Cause - too much light. Grows pretty much everywhere and makes plants look dusty. Often found in start up tanks, or those who insist on pummeling their tank with too much light.Remedy - make sure your lighting is kept to a minimum (6 hours per day when you start up) and water changes are frequent (30% minimum once a week). Use a soft sponge to wipe it off the glass and clean glass regularly. In no time this algae will disappear

Well this makes the most sense to me, just based on what I have been told on here. The first word in that sentence is 'Cause' . I think this is the issue here.

All other factors being optimum you can have as much light as you like. When people say 'too much light' they usually mean relative to some other parameter - like Co2 etc..

So you have established the cause (too much light in relation to some other factor) one you 'fix' that factor you can resume 'normal lighting'.

If you read in the thread I linked (toward the end), what Clive goes on to say is that once the 'root cause' is fixed (Co2 availability or whatever else) I could increase light and see how it goes.

If your unsure then a blackout will help, but IME it must totally blacked out, no peeping at all. Just doing that for one day is enough to completely rid my tank of diatom - as long as Co2 is optimal

Thanks

 

[Sacha]

You can follow that advice if you like, but I'm afraid a blackout will only make diatoms worse.

High light is not a cause of diatoms. New substrate leeching silica, and LOW light makes diatoms worse.

It is generally accepted that the best way to combat diatoms is to INCREASE the light. But it is your choice what you do- I've given my advice.

 

[Ady34]

Unfortunately it seems there isnt an overnight cure or single solution for most algaes, persistance and multiple changes are often necessary. Addressing one issue at a time may see results, but for the most effective control, extra c02 either concentration or distribution combined with lower lighting and additional water changes/maintenance covers most bases. Perhaps even the use of liquid carbon in some instances.

Hard to tell if new or existing but certain i'm seeing brown edges on some relatively new plants

If its a long running tank with new issues then check the c02 to see if its altered, if not its likely a maintenance issue so increase water change frequency (i see you have done both of these) and trim plant mass as necessary to ensure good circulation.
If they are new plants they could just be adjusting to underwater life so give them some time and trim if necessary. Even submersed plants could struggle for example if your lighting is much higher or c02 lower than their previous home.
Also an image of the issue would help diagnose the problem, it may not even be diatoms?
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

You can follow that advice if you like, but I'm afraid a blackout will only make diatoms worse.

High light is not a cause of diatoms. New substrate leeching silica, and LOW light makes diatoms worse.

It is generally accepted that the best way to combat diatoms is to INCREASE the light. But it is your choice what you do- I've given my advice.

I would never increase light to battle algae. You can end up creating more trouble both for plants and increasing the chances of other types of algae. It is a balance and increased lighting also means providing increased c02 availability.
We dont even know if it is diatoms as yet, so increasing light could be dangerous.
Maybe in this instance patience is needed to see if it transition from emersed growth, especially if existing plants are fairing well without this issue....

 

[Rob P]

I think this discussion goes to show that there is more than one way to achieve the desired ending as Reuben (from his own experiences) has clearly had results with blackout as have others, I have also read on this forum recently of people who have done 3 day blackouts with no success. Sacha you've obviously had success with increased lighting levels. I appreciate both your inputs

Clive also enforces that light is the key factor, and there's one chap who's advice I wouldn't want to argue against! His advice ref flow, ferts, CO2 distribution etc have moved me forward leaps and bounds, now left with just this niggling issue.

I guess I have to look at MY circumstances and decide the way forward. I don't consider having had too much light for over 4 months now (TMC's at anywhere between 20 - 23% over this period, couple of % up when I thought all looked good, back down when seeing brown again lol) and yet have continually been plagued by browning leaves.

I don't consider the tank anywhere near bad enough to do a blackout. I've approx 10x circulation/flow and have good sway on all plants all around the tank, I can't increase CO2 safely any further, but with the PH profile being good and dropping 1.2 consistently in moderately hard water and lime green DC I don't think it's needed. And I dose EI which should be more than ample for my plant mass. My maintenance regime is consistent and thorough.

So it does leave very few other factors to play around with...

 

[Sacha]

Well, I am just giving my advice based on extensive reading about the science of algae and the balance in the tank of light/ Co2/ nutrients.

It is my understanding that green algae such as hair algae, spot algae, and dust algae grow through photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, just like plants. They therefore need light to grow, as without it they cannot photosynthesize.

Since blue- green "algae" is actually Cyanobacteria, a type of bacteria, it does not rely on photosynthesis to grow, and it can multiply in the absence of light.

Similarly, since diatoms are phytoplankton, they too can grow in the absence of light.

It is important to note that the key word here is "rely". Both cyanobacteria and diatoms do not RELY on photosynthesis. It is true that diatoms and cyanobacteria photosynthesise, just like green algae. The key difference is that in the absence of light, green algae have no other way of growing, whereas cyanobacteria and diatoms can still thrive in very low light.

 

[Rob P]

Also an image of the issue would help diagnose the problem, it may not even be diatoms?

Hi Ady, thanks for commenting here

Two problems, 1) i'm crap with a camera and 2) embarrassed to post pictures of my aquarium (it was set up solely for fish long before I knew anything about hi tech!! lol). The plants affected are a mixture of old/new. Not sure if you saw my major stem issue thread only just a week or two ago when I lost a load of my stems through what I think was purigen recharge/bleach leech!

It's the fact that a newly planted Hygro guianensis seems to be just browning on the leaf edges and some exisiting plants are also just looking a bit brown tinged.

The best I can offer is an example taken a while back, this Hygro melted spectacularly with the other stems lol, but is typical of what I see on the leaves...



It does rub with a finger, but not what I'd call soft and slimy. But it is definitely brown and not filamentous. I often pull browned leaves off various plants, sometimes til I think i've got them all. But the fact I see more means it's obviously recurring.

I know everyone keeps commenting on increasing CO2, but does anyone really think with a drop of 1.2 for lights on and throughout the cycle already that more is needed? (it has been like this for well over a month now). It is fed through inline diffuser exiting via rear spraybar and bubbles travel down the front glass and along the substrate.

 

[Ady34]

Well, I am just giving my advice based on extensive reading about the science of algae and the balance in the tank of light/ Co2/ nutrients.

It is my understanding that green algae such as hair algae, spot algae, and dust algae grow through photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, just like plants. They therefore need light to grow, as without it they cannot photosynthesize.

Since blue- green "algae" is actually Cyanobacteria, a type of bacteria, it does not rely on photosynthesis to grow, and it can multiply in the absence of light.

Similarly, since diatoms are phytoplankton, they too can grow in the absence of light.

It is important to note that the key word here is "rely". Both cyanobacteria and diatoms do not RELY on photosynthesis. It is true that diatoms and cyanobacteria photosynthesise, just like green algae. The key difference is that in the absence of light, green algae have no other way of growing, whereas cyanobacteria and diatoms can still thrive in very low light.

perhaps, but why would increasing your light reduce their growth?, unless it is to encourage the plants into positive action, which will then also need c02 attention otherwise you could end up with a whole different problem of green algae. I believe it is all in the balance, i run low light and do not suffer diatoms.
Have you cured diatoms from increasing light?
Cyano you can prevent/cure with good tank husbandry, water changes, filter cleaning and substrate cleaning along with good circulation and fertilisation where necessary.