Stunted plants....

[Ady34]

Hi,
currently have a 180l planted set up which has been running now for 8 months or so.
I have pressurised c02, lime green dc, fish on the edge of being very unhappy towards the end of c02 injection. C02 injection period is 3hrs pre lights on and 2.5 hrs pre light off. Ive been tweaking this to try and get it right and am now running an inline system and distribution seems good. Im dosing 5ml flourish excell daily as a c02 boost also.
Substrate is Aquasoil amazonia with powersand special m, and currently dosing 15ml daily TPN+ and 2.5ml daily Easy Life K (potassium). At water change i mix 15ml sera Mg, Ca and K mineral salts with the changed water to provide for any Mg/Ca deficiencies.
Fluval G6 filtration with additional koralia nano 900 lph powerhead for extra circulation (1900lph turnover). Temp. 77f.
Lighting is 2 x 39w ho T5 with reflector positioned approx. 8cm above water surface, with glass drip covers between. 8 hr photoperiod.
Water changes 40% every 6 days.
My issue is that some species of plants are simply not thriving, they are in a stalemate situation, surviving but not growing. Namely, staurogyne repens, ludwigia arcuata, hydrocotle sp. Japan and taxiphllum barbieri (moss). Some of these species are supposed to be weeds, but its just not working out for me. Im having reasonable success with eleocharis species, hygrophilia species, java fern species and to a degree cryptocoryne species... but thats another story!
I dont think anything im growing is particularly demanding and i really want to get things just right before moving on to some more demanding species.
It seems like a c02 issue, but im maxing this out and cant do any more. The only thing i can think is to raise my lighting a little higher to reduce intensity and the subsequent demand for c02 in hope that the plants will grow stronger. I didnt think that 2x 39w t5 would be too much light though? Is this a viable reason behind my issues or is it unlikely?
What is going on?
Any help or ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ady.

 

[greenink]

My tank finally improved when I vacuumed the substrate a lot - maybe ammonia build up there - was amazing the crap that came up. Can't think of anything else from your comprehensive list! Are you doing that?

 

[spyder]

Ady can you please post a pic of the tank?

How is the flow distributed from the G6?

Your co2 timings sound good, I'm at 2.5 hours pre photoperiod and off 3 hours before the end of the photoperiod.

Tell us more about the Crypto issues. It could hold some clues.

I can't comment on the ferts as I'm not familiar with the products and dosing.

 

[Antipofish]

My tank finally improved when I vacuumed the substrate a lot - maybe ammonia build up there - was amazing the crap that came up. Can't think of anything else from your comprehensive list! Are you doing that?

Mike, how do you vacuum a substrate without pulling out newly planted carpets ? And how do you vacuum substrate where there are densely planted stem plants? It strikes me that the only part that can be vacuumed is the areas thats not planted. I am guessing you must just mean use a gravel vac to syphon what is resting on the surface of the substrate ?

I ask because I am having the same issues as Ady (just put a thread up in the General Planted section)
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20991

 

[greenink]

Gravel vac lightly held in place just above surface - mark Evans has a video somewhere

 

[Antipofish]

Gravel vac lightly held in place just above surface - mark Evans has a video somewhere

Thanks Mike, just wanted to clarify. Its a throwback from keeping fish in an undergravel setup where you are made to vac and vac and vac. We think our tanks get dirty but OH the sheet that came out of a UG filter was revolting, LOL.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Hey Ady, have you considered the possibility that the initial amazonia nutrients might now be depleted and the plants dont have enough at the roots to thrive as they did?? Im not sure how long it lasts having never used it but considering that you had success with this tank until quite recently and the fact that on paper all should be well i guess it worth looking at other possibilities.
I appreciate that amazonia will continue to store added nutrients but do plants get use to a certain amount of food or get used to heavy root feeding rather than from the water column and now they struggle?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that amazonia's initial magic last about 8 months...??
Then again i might to talking poop

 

[Antipofish]

Hey Ady, have you considered the possibility that the initial amazonia nutrients might now be depleted and the plants dont have enough at the roots to thrive as they did?? Im not sure how long it lasts having never used it but considering that you had success with this tank until quite recently and the fact that on paper all should be well i guess it worth looking at other possibilities.
I appreciate that amazonia will continue to store added nutrients but do plants get use to a certain amount of food or get used to heavy root feeding rather than from the water column and now they struggle?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that amazonia's initial magic last about 8 months...??
Then again i might to talking poop

Hi, I am sure I have read Clive write that its nutrients from the water column that matter much much more. But I am just some useless git who cant grow his own plants, lol. Thought I would mention it though. People grow plants in totally inert subtrates so the amazonia ought not to have a significant effect surely ? Not trying to poo poo what you said Mike, just trying to reason it out to a conclusion

 

[Ady34]

Hi all, and thanks for the replies.

My tank finally improved when I vacuumed the substrate a lot - maybe ammonia build up there - was amazing the crap that came up. Can't think of anything else from your comprehensive list! Are you doing that?

Hi Mike, no not vacuuming, i have never done this and was just saying to Antipofish that i bet theres loads of crud in amongst the hairgrass at the rear of the tank and in the moss too, although i do waft this occasionally! Some say vac, others promote the natural process of the plants to degrade any waste.... maybe i should try a spring clean!

Ady can you please post a pic of the tank?

How is the flow distributed from the G6?

Your co2 timings sound good, I'm at 2.5 hours pre photoperiod and off 3 hours before the end of the photoperiod.

Tell us more about the Crypto issues. It could hold some clues.

I can't comment on the ferts as I'm not familiar with the products and dosing.

Hi Spyder, flow is via 2 nozzles pointed along the rear of the tank, and the other towards the front. Koralia at opposite end pointed slightly downwards towards the front.
Crypt melt issues have been ongoing, and is why i started dosing Mg and Ca to ensure no deficiencies in that respect. More than likely this was a c02 issue though due to fluctuating/changing c02. I do still get it, but have recently swapped to inline diffusion to try to help with managing distribution.
Heres a pic. Looks quite healthy but that staurogyne hasnt grown in months and the moss which i used to regularly prune has also stopped and is a much darker (less healthy) looking green. Hydrocotle is centre foreground and as a relitively recent addition has never taken off. Ive just trimmed the hydrocotle and some staurogyne last night (not this photo) to see if this encourages new growth.

Hey Ady, have you considered the possibility that the initial amazonia nutrients might now be depleted and the plants dont have enough at the roots to thrive as they did?? Im not sure how long it lasts having never used it but considering that you had success with this tank until quite recently and the fact that on paper all should be well i guess it worth looking at other possibilities.
I appreciate that amazonia will continue to store added nutrients but do plants get use to a certain amount of food or get used to heavy root feeding rather than from the water column and now they struggle?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that amazonia's initial magic last about 8 months...??
Then again i might to talking poop

Hi, its a possibility, but im under the impression that it reabsorbs nutrients from the water column. Im now dosing 15ml daily of TPN+, thats nearly a recommended weekly dose daily! Pricey, but ive just bought some EI ferts to see how they work out. I do have a stash of tpn+ substrate capsules, so i could try these. The staurogyne fright foreground is in gravel, i wonder whether it needs more root food?... its never really thrived though and has been in amazonia before.
The more i talk and think about it it seems c02 related but im maxed on that front and dosing flourish excel, plus some plants are doing well?
Cheers guys, a bit more info gives more food for thought so knock yourselves out!
Ady.

 

[Antipofish]

Out of interest Ady, how much excel are you dosing ?

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Not trying to poo poo what you said Mike, just trying to reason it out to a conclusion

Poopoo away mate, just thinking of other possibilities.

People grow plants in totally inert subtrates so the amazonia ought not to have a significant effect surely ?

think general opinion would disagree

 

[darren636]

just remember- never poo-poo a poo-poo.

 

[Ady34]

Out of interest Ady, how much excel are you dosing ?

5ml daily mate.

 

[spyder]

Just a thought. Would you say the stauro is slightly shaded as it seems a little darker up that corner. I have the same with some vesuvius at the end of the tank. It doesn't get the light levels as say the centre of the tank where they flourish.

Your tank looks fantastic. Very nice and lush. I'm not familiar with the ferts your using, (I'm EI converted) but you have one hell of a plant mass there. As the plant mass increases so will the demand for co2 and nutrients. As you saying you fish are panicking at times, you could up the ferts for a few weeks and see if there's any improvement there.

flow is via 2 nozzles pointed along the rear of the tank, and the other towards the front. Koralia at opposite end pointed slightly downwards towards the front.

Are these working against each other in any way? The ones facing the front for instance.

I think I have twin 27w T5's in my Rio 125 and I find Staurogyne a very rampant plant. Around 6-8 weeks from a trim yields stems around 2-3 inches long.

 

[Ady34]

I'm not familiar with the ferts your using, (I'm EI converted) but you have one hell of a plant mass there. As the plant mass increases so will the demand for co2 and nutrients. As you saying you fish are panicking at times, you could up the ferts for a few weeks and see if there's any improvement there.

Yeah ive been slowly increasing it over the last few months, but TPN+ is expensive and at 15ml/day im going through it pretty fast! Ive only got a little left and have bought some EI salts from APFUK to try. Its a tobis special n type mix along with some micros too so hopefully ill be able to cost effectively increase my dosage to see if it alters anything. This tank is now a bit of an experiment of c02 and ferts as im wanting to rescape, but thought id try to address some issues before moving on.

flow is via 2 nozzles pointed along the rear of the tank, and the other towards the front. Koralia at opposite end pointed slightly downwards towards the front.

Are these working against each other in any way? The ones facing the front for instance.

They are meeting in the middle but this then creates a flow towards the middle area of the tank and overall circulation seems good. On the next set up i may try a spraybar return to get more even less 'clashing' circulation. I cant do it in this set up now as its drilled base and i cant cap it with everything in the tank.

I find Staurogyne a very rampant plant. Around 6-8 weeks from a trim yields stems around 2-3 inches long.

Ha, yeah ive seen your staurogyne farm, its very impressive

Would you say the stauro is slightly shaded as it seems a little darker up that corner.

Maybe a little, but if c02 and ferts were good enough they should be growing. Ill try these new ferts and up the dosage and see if this has any effect..... otherwise it has to be c02 and in that case im gonna chuck everything away as i dont know how to get it right!!!! :?
Thanks for the replies,
Ady.